…and the signatories are

July 24, 2012 by J-Wire Staff
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A petition has been presented to the Australian Jewish Community demanding “Israel end detention of Palestinians without charge. J-Wire publishes the signatories and The Executive Council of Australian Jewry response…

THE PETITION

Palestinian and Jewish Australians’ plea to the Australian Jewish Community
Demand Israel end detention of Palestinians without charge

Greetings,
An open letter to the Australian Jewish community.

We, the undersigned, are Australians of Jewish and Palestinian backgrounds who share a concern for the ongoing Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories, including the West Bank and East Jerusalem, of administrative detention without charge, including of minors.
We believe the Palestinian prisoners’ hunger strike not only highlights these unjust practices, but is increasingly underscoring the desperate situation Palestinians face.
Furthermore, we are disturbed by the public silence on these matters by the Australian Jewish community. On what basis can there be support for such policies?
We call on all Jewish people and organisations to speak out about this policy and demand that Israel immediately ends its policy of administrative detention without charge of Palestinians, including minors.

THE SIGNATORIES

THE RESPONSE

from Dr Danny Lamm, president of The Executive Council of Australian Jewry

“Everyone has the right to express their views, but it is disturbing that this petition is so one sided, reeks of hypocrisy and has a ludicrously selective view of the facts on the ground.  Nowhere does it mention Israel’s adherence to the rule of law and  oversight by the Supreme Court.  Conspicuously, it does not condemn or even call for condemnation of groups like Hamas which have for years deliberately targeted innocent civilians, including women and children and exploited Palestinian children to carry out lethal terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

One of the two murderers of the Fogel family in March 2011 was a minor. Whilst his mother at first tried to assert that her son had only confessed to the crime under torture, this lie was soon exposed when he re-enacted the attack before security officials and demonstrated an intimate knowledge of the grisly details.  Sadly, the young terrorist also expressed pride in the killings. Even more sadly, the signatories to this petition choose time and again to remain silent in the face of such atrocities committed against Israel and her people.

No-one who is actively involved in the life of the Jewish community in Australia or has a knowledge of the facts within Israel would have anything to do with this petition or give it the slightest credence. It should further be noted that the hunger strike to which the petition also refers ceased as a result of changes to the detention laws  agreed to by Israel  some time ago, but true to form, this fact is omitted.”

Comments

43 Responses to “…and the signatories are”
  1. David says:

    Jews, as fellow Semites to Palestinians, and as victims of terrible oppression and apartheid, should be on side with the Palestinians in appealing to Israel’s supporters in Australia to reconsider that blanket support. After the Shoah, Jews should join in the struggle for “Never again!: never again to anyone including the Palestinians. Occupation can only be achieved and maintained by violence. Occupation preordains terrorism: terrorism on the part of the occupiers and the occupied.

    “It is not true that the Arabs detest the Jews for personal, religious or racial reasons.” – Moshe Dayan.

    “A state governing a hostile population of 1.5 million to 2 million foreigners [the number of Palestinians in the occupied territories in 1967] is bound to become a Shin Bet [Security Service] state, with all that this implies for the spirit of education, freedom of speech and thought and democracy. Israel will be infected with corruption, characteristic of any colonial regime. The administration will have to deal with the suppression of an Arab protest movement on the one hand, and with the acquisition of Arab quisling s on the other…. The army, which has been so far a people’s army, will degenerate as well as by becoming an occupation army, and its officers, turned into military governors, will not differ from military governors elsewhere in the world” Yeshayahu Leibowitz, Orthodox Jew ish thinker.

    • Otto Waldmann says:

      A hollow recital of farcical mantras pontificating a morality abandoned by a people defined by hatred of Jews well before Israel was created as a modern state. Palestinians have infested their DNA with the venom of criminal disposition, an inner determination to exterminate,erase any sign of Jewish presence in what THEY would dearly OCCUPY, being the entire space Providence has reserved for the People of the Covenant, small space as it is.

      David, you can take your naive, if not ill-intended, sermon and preach it to your beloved brothers in arms and home made missiles from Gaza ( un-occupied ) to Ramalla ( free to decide what educational curriculum they design for their next generation of suicide bombers – everyone welcome from age 5) .
      Your twisted “logic” avoids by “accident” ( of intellectual deficiency I would suppose ) the stark reality that, unless Jewish security presence is not overlooking the well entrenched character of hatred among the palestinians, torrents of tragedies would await the Israelis who have long abandoned any hope that normality in civility can be attained by those who can only be accepted next door if astutely watched.
      You are not dreaming or anything, but shifting the burden of reality from the tangible to the irrational/offensive/irrelevant/redundant. Now you have a few terms to deal with, but cease lecturing the victims about the noble nature of the criminals !!!

  2. Red says:

    Now don’t hold back there guys! Traitors?? Now just remember that European dictators with funny moustaches strongly favoured detention without trial – and our family members were among those being detained. I would laugh at anyone who directly caled me a traitor and I would reply that “Patriotism was not the last refuge of a scoundrel but indeed the first.”
    Look, presumption of innocence and the right to due process are what our ancestors fought and died for. These are things that are essential to to any democracy worth having.
    I was born after WWII but in a sense, I haven’t stopped fighting that war. Fascism took a hit in 1945 but one can never completely defeat fascism because it resurfaces in other guises. I will continue to fight fascism and to defend my concept of democracy – and to those who call me a “Traitor” I reply – “The working people have no country!”

    • Otto Waldmann says:

      Just typical of partisan ignorance and abuse of known terms. From habeas corpus/Magna Carta to Nazi concentration vamps, the range of totally irrelevant analogies defines the so called “argument” of a compromised mob of supporters of the most vile ideological and practical compendium of Jew haters ,id est the Palestinian contingent and their cohorts, of which the above list is a proud segment.

      Looking today at the cover of the Australian Jewish News I was struck, once again, by the list of our olympic victims of the same Palestinian terrorism the present list is so abominably protecting.

      Whether pretend Jews or whatever, the list of signatories in the current declaration when juxtaposed to the one of our murdered Olympic Israeli heroes makes one severely angered and sick !!!

      “Red”, “David” the whole mob, you have no respect for the victims of Palestinian atrocities, no humanity, no right to address us, let alone pontificate and patronise while promoting shamelessly your alignment to the most criminal entity of modern times, the Palestinians !!!!!

      • Red says:

        Is abouse all you have Otto and Paul. Is this how you debate with ad hominem attacks? What is your motivation? To stifle all dissent within the Jewish community. Please show some respect – and on that topic how DARE you make ANY assumptions on our feelings towards the victims of terrorism.

        Spiteful denunciations will not intimidate me. Don’t let fear rule your heart – rise above these base feelings and break down your self-imposed ghetto walls. We are not your enemy and never have been. You fear is your enemy.

        And please moderators, do your job and moderate. The basic rules of civilisaed discussion should be respected. People should be respected.

        • Red says:

          Dear Moderator(s)
          Disreagard my last letter – it would nor serve to continue the exchange – but I would like to express my disappointment that some of your posters have chosen to be so abusive.
          Regards,
          Red bingham

          • Otto Waldmann says:

            Poor soul….
            First you add your name to a most offensive attempt at whitewashing a cluster of murderers who happen to have been stopped from carrying out crimes against the Jewish people and, now that you have encontered the just anger of those who DO care about the perilous fate of those at the mercy of dedicated criminals, have the audacity, arrogance to call it “abuse” !!!

            GOOD RIDDANCE !!!

        • Otto Waldmann says:

          Red

          Red herrings of objection to the farcical notion of attacks ad hominem, mixed with the pathetic claims of “intimidation”, make for staged hysteria in place of rational argumentation.

          1- attacks ad hominem in the present exchanges are implicit in completing the cycle of necessary address to the complexity of the issues. It is to say that , as a hominum makes a statement, he is responsible for the utterings. The statements reflect the intellectual morphology of the “speaker”. and, as Red is responsible for what Red states, if homini with different opinions to Red consider his statements to be, say, absurd, that makes everything involved in the existence of the statement …absurd, specifically, however, the holder of the statement, id est …RED !!!

          2- the assumptions of one’s feelings can be made when relationship between the substance of the statements uttered and the exclusively implicit person making them are matched.

          There is absolutely nothing uncivilised about the choice of ideas and terms used by anyone present objecting to the incredibly uncivilised document above and its signatories.

          Red, do you really, really expect the offended Jews present here NOT to react to the abominable statements you are responsible for !!!!????

          I suggest next time you feel like taking on the Jewish community , simply DON’T !!!

  3. David says:

    B’Tselem report on administrative detention and their call for the government to end it…

    http://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention/20120201_sharp_rise_in_administrative_detention

    In 2011, there was a sharp increase in the number of Palestinian administrative detainees held by Israel, from 219 in January to 307 in December, according to figures B’Tselem received from the Israel Prison Service. Twenty-nine percent of the detainees had been held for six months to one year; another 24 percent from one to two years. Seventeen Palestinians had been in administrative detention continuously for two to four and a half years, and one man has been held for over five years. At the end of 2011, Israel was holding one minor in administrative detention. This year marks the first time since 2008 that there was an increase in the number of administrative detainees, after the number had fallen from 813, in January 2008, to 204 in December 2010.

    Administrative detention is detention without trial, intended to prevent a person from committing an act that is liable to endanger public safety. Such a detention is inherently problematic since, unlike a criminal proceeding, administrative detention is not intended to punish a person for an offense already committed, but to prevent a future danger. The manner in which Israel uses administrative detention is patently illegal. Administrative detainees are not told the reason for their detention or the specific allegations against them. Although detainees are brought before a judge to approve the detention order, most of the material submitted by the prosecution is classified and not shown to the detainee or his attorney. Since the detainees do not know the evidence against them, they are unable to refute it. The detainees also do not know when they will be released: although the maximum period of administrative detention is six months, it can be renewed indefinitely. In fact, of the administrative detainees held in December, over 60% had their detention extended at least once beyond the first detention order.

    Administrative detention violates the right to liberty and the right to due process, since the detainee is incarcerated for a prolonged period on the basis of secret evidence, without charge or trial.

    Over the years, Israel has held thousands of Palestinians in administrative detention for periods ranging from a few months to several years. The state has also administratively detained a number of Israelis, including settlers, for periods of a few months. There were times during the second intifada that Israel held over a thousand Palestinians held in administrative detention.

    Under international law, it is permissible to administratively detain a person only in exceptional cases, to prevent a grave danger that cannot be prevented through less harmful means. Israel’s use of administrative detention blatantly breaches these rules. The army must release all the administrative detainees or prosecute them, in accordance with due process

    • Otto Waldmann says:

      Countless paragraphs of utter nonsense !!!
      All these defenders of the legal faith, throwing arround totally farcical, irrelevant convenince theories of “human rights”, “illegality” with the obvious intent to look sophisticated, informed and, would you believe, rational, avoid with obvious purpose the stark reality that ALL those in detention have on their hands and proven record acts of horrible aggression, hatred, criminal intent AND, mostly, criminal acts against Jews !!! Those who claim to be Jewish and sign petitions, declarations as the tragically idiotic one above, have abandoned the known reality that Israel is at the mercy of a mob, call it whatever you want, yes, palestinian, a mob that lives with the chief purpose to harm Israelis.
      All those criminals, regardless of age and gender, NEED to be stopped from inflicting criminal acts against ANYONE !!!Israel does not arrest and incarcerate any individual with the intention of packing up jails to make them look busy. They arrest and keep under control KNOWN criminals. Now, if all those signing above and their brethern NGOs are not entirely happy with the due process, BAD LUCK !! Security reasons will not be abandoned to satisfy misplaced, irrational, hate-filled armchair activists who know best what is good for Israel !!!
      Israeli jails, packed as they are with Jew haters, carry out the socially necessary function of protecting a civilised society, our beloved Jewish State of Israel, from wanton destruction ( has vSholem ) and here we have complete morons arguing that “legal principles” going back hundreds of years somewhere in the hills of Britania are not observed !!!!!
      Morons on parade.

      • David says:

        OK Otto, you and a few others have had your little blast. The point is that if there is a crime committed, they should be charged and given a trial.

        You write: “the stark reality that ALL those in detention have on their hands and proven record acts of horrible aggression, hatred, criminal intent AND, mostly, criminal acts against Jews !!! ”

        You seem to contradict the Israeli Public Security Minister…
        http://972mag.com/israel-admits-administrative-detention-unnecessary/44673/

        “Israeli Public Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovitch on Thursday made several astounding admissions regarding Israel’s use of administrative detention. In private meetings with security officials, Aharonovitch called for reducing Israel’s use of the practice, applying it “only if there is a need and not in all cases,” according to a Haaretz report.

        He was in effect admitting that the practice is being used even when it is not necessary, if one accepts that it is ever necessary. Furthermore he seemed to be conceding that Israel uses administrative detention instead of carrying out thorough criminal or intelligence investigations.

        In a presentation to Israel’s Defense Ministry, Justice Ministry, the IDF, Shin Bet and Prison Service, Aharonovitch recommended that authorities “exhaust investigations and evidence collections” in order to allow the application of criminal proceedings against Palestinian arrestees, a principle that shouldn’t need advocating in a democracy.”

        • Otto Waldmann says:

          No David, your opinion/interpretation is as tendentious as it is offensive to one’s intellect.
          The absurd extentions you allow a certain statement does not address at all the FACT that arrests are made following known acts of terrorism. In acts of terrorism we must include planning, instigating, encouraging terrorism. While I would not draw my reliable data from HaAretz, the interpretation of the term “necessary” reffers to DEGREES of detected, known, acts of terrorism as per the above range of the term. Considering the prevailing attitude known to be among palestinians of voluntary disposition to commiting degrees of terrorism against Jews, the Ministry is, actually, considering a degree of relaxation of the strictness in the application of the whole range, and NOT AT ALL an admission that the process lacks legality and, most importantly, necessity.
          Your argument is totally farcical and tendentious.
          Your and your fellow travellers’ distorted interpretations and core notion of a failure by Israel to respect legal principle is an abominably transparent attempt at vilifying the Jewish State and, conversely an uttrely irresposnible attempt at weakening the necessary process Israel is undertaking in ensuring that its safety, the very security of its citizens is not compromised.

          All those present appalled at the text and subsequent arguments presented by this shameful group, are stating with clarity and vigour that what your are doing contains no logic, no recognition of the elementary fact that Israel is dealing with a populace which in its majority is devicing numerous methods of undermining the very existence of Israel. That you claim the imposition of certain principles in the conduct of Israel completely unrelated to the impending realities constantly determined by a vast range of palestinian crimninality toward Israel is as absurd as it is totally bereft of any consideration for the fate of the Israelis exposed to constant attacks by the palestinians.

          I have no idea why I am being so polite and civil with your type !!!!!!

    • Paul Winter says:

      Perhaps the best reality test that you can apply to the terrible, terrible administrative detention policy of Israel is the the overfed hunger strikers who recently got some concessions in return for promising to behave in more civilised ways, were actually demanding more TV and access to education. And as Otto pointed out, the sweet innocents have blood on their hands or are dying to get blood on them. It is very convenient to prattle about human rights and due process when it isn’t your life or the life of your loved ones threatened by antisemitic islamofascist fanatics. The purity of intent and high-minded goals ring hollow when one bears in mind that similar actions in other countries far less at threat are not so much as breathed by critics of Israel.

  4. David says:

    I cannot believe the nonsense that Paul Winter writes – “there is no such thing as a Palestinian” – it is called the right to national self determination Paul. Andrew Bolt felt the full wrath of the legal system for his questioning of the bona fides of Indigenous Australians who have light skins to their claim of Aboriginality. Israeli governments since Rabin accepted that these people are Palestinians and have the right to their own nation state.

    Winter’s arguments are so similar to the anti-Zionists (including Bundists) who posit that the Jews are only a religion or culture and therefore not entitled to their own national self determination. Even Stalin accepted that the Jews were a nation. Can’t Winter see the logical extension of his puerile argument and its implications for the Jewish state?

    More importantly Lamm’s response is so typical of the Israel right or wrong culture that is turning our young people away from Israel in droves. The New Israel Fund – a Zionist organisation – is at the forefront of supporting organisations in Israel that are tryiung to create a more civil and democratic country based on the rule of law. Does Lamm consider the NIF anti Israel or anti Zionist for its support of organisations fighting peacefully against administrative detention in Israel.

    • Paul Winter says:

      If you bothered to read my post regarding the artificiality of the “Palestinian people”, you would have seen my reference to Rumanian intelligence general Ion Pacepa who documented that the Pals were invented by the KGB in 1964. The technique of ignoring evidence and simply dismissing facts is typical of the hard left using the big lie techniques of totalitarian regimes. They only work when truth can be suppressed. So again, there are no Palestinians, the Arabs of that region regarded themselves as southern Syrians

      Self identification is fine, but witht the case of the Pals, it is used malevolently to deny the Jewish people a right to self-identification and hence self-determination. And while self-identification is fine, I would deny that the Germans were the Aryan master-race. So get real.

      Sophistry is fine David, but you lack sophistication. Pointing out that the Pals are not a genuine people in no way uindermines my assertion that Jews are in fact a people. I don’t know if you are Jewish, but I belong to a people who have a language, a history, a culture, a religion and certain genetic markers and archeological evidence of their roots in the region where they have reestablished their state. The Pals have nothing unique about them. Nothing!

      The assertion that the NIF is supporting democracy in Israel is laughable. It also underscores your contention that Israel is not democratic and hencs does not deserve our support.The NIF has no local support in Isarael and is held in contempt by Zionists there and in the Diaspora. The NIF is active in supporting anti-Israel Arabs. That the NIF opposes administrative detention which saves Jewish life, is as much as needs to be said about the Zionistic credentials of the NIF.

  5. Red says:

    I am against indefinite detention without trial. To me it strikes at the heart of democracies – ironically governments argue that that is the reason for it. Ever since the barons forced bad King John to sign the Magna Carta following the Battle of Runnymede, the justice system on which our law is based has recognised the principle of haebus corpus – that an accused person has a right to due process. The European dictators of the 20th century and other tyrants believed in indefinite detention of their suspected enemies. Which side are you on? http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3509667.htm

    • Paul Winter says:

      I am on the side of saving life. Pompous referrals to the Magna Carta and heabus corpus aren’t worth a bucket of warm spit against people who hate Jews, who cannot accept the Jew as an equal, who think themselves as superior and are ecstatic about 72 virgins and an eternity in a bordello if they die killing “enemies of Allah”.

      Singer has mentioned a number of countries that have administrative detention. Ignoring that, and spouting high minded principles is mere obfuscation. Criticising Israel only reeks of hypocrisy at best and antisemitism at worst.

      As well, as Otto Waldmann pointed out when tried, the average sentence is 8.3 years less the time detained. To demand that Israel apply standards of due process when it is at war, when its citizens are regularly murdered and when it is not on full civilian control of areas where administrative detentions occur is unrealistic bias. Singling out Israel alone is hateful bigotry. And ignoring the time Australian citizens are held in remand while the police carry out investigations highlights the scurrilousness and malevolence of the complaint against Israel.

  6. Paul Winter says:

    The people who are missing the point are those who support the nonsense petition that they put their signatures to. That petition is just another pretend humanitarian screed to blacken Israel.

    The fact is that despite overt normality in Israel, it is at war. During war-time, certain liberties are suspended. Further, the adminsiirative detentions are in Judae and Samaria, parts of which are under IDF administration. The petition deliberately confuses military and civilian administration of justice.

    The people in administrative detention are held on suspicion of some act or plan that could harm Israel. Their sentences are reviewed six monthly by a judge. Questioning that procedure implies that a Jewish judge will on a basis of racism extend the detention of a mohammedan. That in Australia ASIO gives adverse security reports is only questioned by fringe groups. In all societies there is one rule for citizens and another for aliens. But the view taken by signatories is that the highest standard of due process must be applied to people linked to groups that murder Jews in compliance with their interpretation of their religion or their opposition to the self-determination of the Jewish people. That such a scurrilous petition has been issued when the corpses of Jews massacred in Bulgaria have not fully cooled is nothing short of obscene.

    The petitioners also ignore the danger of sources of intelligence. In societies where Hamas, Farah and kindred gangs murder without a second thought, having an open trial would be a death sentence to informers. That would stop the flow of information and result in more Jewish deaths. But purists for due process and democracy care for principle and not people, especially if the people happen to be Jews.

    Lastly, the status of “children” and of people fighting against Israel. When people of any age resort to violence, they forfeit their protected status under the Geneva Convention. And that brings us to the question of the status of people fighting or planning violence against Israel. If they are criminals, they are tried and sentenced for specific crimes. But if they are freedom fighters and waging a war against Israel as the PA and Hamas like to portray the terrorists, then as prisoners of war, there is no need to put them on trial, nor is there any obligation on Israel to free them until a peace is signed.

  7. PATRICIA says:

    THE USUAL CRETINS, SIGNING THE USUAL BUMFF. SO VERY EASY TO PULL THE WOOL OVER THEIR EYES. SHEEPLE IS ALL.

  8. PATRICIA says:

    I WONDER WHERE THERE SIGNATURES WERE WHEN WE WERE SIGNING PETITIONS FOR THE RELEASE OF GILEAD SHALIT?

    ALL I CAN SAY IS -‘FATHER – FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO’.

  9. Peter says:

    What part of “human rights” does Danny Lamm not understand? Perhaps some readers of J-Wire will be embarrassed by his response to the occasion of Jews and Palestinians coming together to appeal to the humanity of the Jewish community who have a special responsibility in relation to the Jewish State. Why such a callous indifference to the plight of Palestinians who have resorted to desperate, non-violent forms of protest against the egregious violation of their human rights and dignity? Why the familiar resort to denial and dismissiveness? The vast majority of those in administrative detention by the Israeli military are not criminals or terrorists and have not been even charged or tried, let alone found guilty of anything. Even if the signatories of the petition were all guilty of hypocrisy as Lamm suggests, this would not justify his pretense that Israel has nothing to answer for in its pattern of administrative detentions and the abuse of minors. Human rights organizations such as DCI (Defence of Children International) and Israel’s own B’Tselem, among others document the extent of Israel’s abuses. Contrary to Lamm’s unfounded assertion, those who fight on behalf of Palestinians also unequivocally condemn the crimes of Palestinians that he mentions including the targeting of innocent civilians by Hamas and others. For an important example, contrary to Lamm’s ill-informed assertion, Palestinian human rights organization Al Haq documents both Palestinian and also Israeli violations of international law. So, now the question becomes: Why does Lamm pretend that Jews have nothing to be concerned about regarding Israel’s practices under a brutal military occupation and the violation of human rights and international law such as the Geneva Conventions? Patriotic Israeli’s such as the former IDF soldiers of “Breaking the Silence” have a different story to tell Israelis and Jews around the world. Lamm clearly fails to understand that for Jews, a genuine concern with justice and human rights means not just condemning the crimes of others, but condemning the crimes committed in our name, which are on a large scale, and where we can make a difference.

    • Otto Waldmann says:

      The good thing about some people not releasing their full name is that they can be termed as anything. In the above “Peter” case I am delighted that we, Jews, cannot be laughed at in totum for coming out with such stupendous deficiency as palestinians acting in a “non-violent forms of protest”.
      Our worst enemies bragg about being excessively violent against their Jewish foes, one excellent reason for being caught and indefinitely detained.
      Anyway, the entire idiotic exercise is only another manifestation of loyalty mindless people of ANY background are anxious to provide to one of the most nefarious collective of criminals.

    • singer says:

      Peter

      You state:

      “The vast majority of those in administrative detention by the Israeli military are not criminals or terrorists”

      What proof do you have to make this assertion?

      • David says:

        They haven’t been convicted and are therefore innocent until proven guilty.
        It is the whole point of the petition, Mr/Ms Singer.
        Even under Mandate Law in the Occupied Territories, a person is not a terrorist until convicted. In Israel proper the law is even more just.
        The petition is complaining about people who have not even been charged, let alone convicted.
        It is up to the authorities to PROVE the detainees are terrorists and not hold them indefinitely without charging, let alone trial.

  10. Jennifer says:

    I do not understand why ECJ is so afraid to criticise Israel. As an Australian I condemn our treatment of Aboriginal Australians and refugees.. If someone from another country criticises us on just grounds, I agree with them and ask their support in working towards a more just future in our country. As a trade unionist, I condemn the actions of the few corrupt officials and support moves for greater transparency and democracy where needed. As a motorcyclist, I condemn those violent criminals we call the one-percenters. Most groups have a core of decent people. Sometimes they are shamed by the actions of a few.

    What is different about Israel? All I can see is that the failure to condemn what should be condemned by those who claim to speak for the diaspora community brings shame upon all. To say “what about Hamas” is like the schoolchild who seeks to avoid censure for bad behaviour “because Johnnie did it too”.

    Here the question is Israel’s practice of detaining suspects without charge or trial. What is the problem with seeking to end this illegal practice?

    • singer says:

      Jennifer

      How can you say the practice of administrative detention is “illegal” when it is part of the legal system in Israel?

      Why single out ” all Jewish People and organisations ” to speak out against administrative detention by Israel?

      I note you have not condemned the practice of administrative detention in Australia, or America or Great Britain. Why not?

      Do you want Jewish people to also speak out against this practice by Australia? What about the rest of the Australian population?

      Give us a break.

  11. singer says:

    To David

    Why is the focus of the petition solely on Israel?

    Administrative detention is part of many legal systems of both democratic and non-democratic countries including Australia (as you at least had the decency to mention), Brazil, Egypt,Jordan,Israel,Syria,Ireland, China,United Kingdom and United States – and for good reason especially where countries like Israel are faced with acts of terrorism on almost a daily basis.

    Human Rights Watch Reports on events in 2011:

    “Palestinian armed groups in Gaza launched hundreds of rocket attacks at Israeli population centers in 2011, killing two civilians and seriously injuring at least nine others; indiscriminate mortar attacks seriously injured at least four civilians in Israel. Another attack fatally injured an Israeli youth in a school bus. Egyptian attackers whom Israel claimed operated in coordination with armed groups in Gaza crossed the Egyptian border and killed six Israeli civilians.Hamas authorities carried out three judicial executions in 2011 after unfair military trials, and allegedly tortured scores of detainees, some of whom died in custody.

    The Palestinian Authority’s (PA) security services arbitrarily detained hundreds of Hamas supporters as well as politically unaffiliated protesters who supported the pro-democracy Arab Spring movements and reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah. The PA also arrested journalists who were critical of the authorities. Credible allegations of torture by the PA’s security services continued.

    Palestinian civilians injured 29 settlers in the West Bank and killed seven as of November, the UN reported. In September Israeli police concluded that a father and son from the settlement of Kiryat Arba died in a car crash because Palestinians had thrown rocks at their car. In August an Israeli military court convicted a Palestinian man for killing five members of the Fogel family in the Itamar settlement in March; a second man plead guilty to murder charges in the case in October.”

    Are you going to get a petition circulating to protest these Palestinian abuses?

    By the way the use of the term “Occupied Territories” shows the bias in the petition. Why did it not use the term “Disputed Territories” – since Jews have claims to sovereignty in the West Bank as well?

    Don’t the petitioners believe Jews have the legal right to settle in the West Bank in accordance with international law established by the San Remo conference, the Treaty of Sevres, the Mandate for Palestine, article 80 of the UN Charter and Security Council Resolution 242.?

    Do they – like the PLO – consider such international law null and void? Do they by their signature acknowledge that international law has no relevance for them?

    As of September 31, 2011 Israel had detained 164 Palestinian children under 18-years-old, and also held 272 Palestinians in administrative detention without charge..

    Why did the petition fail to mention these numbers? Was it done to create the impression that many thousands were being so held?

    “The desperate situation Palestinians face” as referred to in the petition pales into insignificance to the situation Syrians have faced in the last eighteen months in what is merely a prelude to ongoing carnage that has claimed more than 20000 lives.

    Are you and your co-signatories concerned enough to get up a petition to condemn what is going on in Syria and the inaction of the Arab League to stop it? I will be happy to sign such a petition when all your signatories have done so.

    Australian Jews should not be duped into signing this one-sided and unbalanced petition. i would urge those few who have to reflect and retract their signatures.

    • Paul Winter says:

      Just a few quibbles.

      There is no such thing as a Palestinian; Ion Pacepa former Rumanian intelligence general revealed that that “ancient people” was concocted by the KGB in 1964. Those people are Arabs or southern Syrians; they are no different to their cousins in Jordan.

      Judea and Samaria are, by the documents cited, open for close settlement by Jews. Arabs are not mentioned. They have no more legal rights to the land than has a squatter. The territories are not in dispute: Jews have a right to Judea and Samaria and if they choose to be generous and decide to share the lane with those who have lived there for years and those who migrated under the British mandate, that is up to them and on condition that the Arabs behave. There is no dispute if some cheeky tenant or guest asserts that he or she has ownership rights to a property you own.

      And there is no West Bank. No river bank is 40km wide and no river has a west, but no east bank.

  12. sonia says:

    I am so saddened to see so many of my fellow Jews in the list of signatories; quite apart from the rest of them

  13. Larry Stillman says:

    Israel claims to be governed by law and this should not exclude the occupied territories –to which it appears, Israel is increasingly claiming is legally its territory.

    The key issue is not that people may or may not be terrorists, murderers, or whathaveyou (and some Jews have been more recently held under the same regulations which go back to Mandate times), but that people should get a speedy trial for alleged crimes, and that includes the murderers of the Fogel family of course. It’s a basic principle of rule of law. Israel is not Hamas and people like me condemn violence and terror whoever commits it.

    Sadly, there are too many well-documented abuses of the administrative detention regulations, appeals to the Israeli Courts or otherwise to regard them as anything but a convenient way to avoid due process.

    Mr Lamm has missed the point entirely.

    • David says:

      Well said Larry Stillman. VERY well said !

    • Otto Waldmann says:

      Larry Stillman indulges in such outlandish nonsense that one wonders what really motivates him to align his intellect to a farcical cause like the one he put his name on.
      Where on Earth did Stillman get the notion that it is a “basic principle of rule of law”, no less, that SPEED is of the essence in jurisprudence !!!!???.
      I would have understood if judicial expedience were a basic tenet in the Hamurabi code and Stillman was in a slightly confused state of mind as what State are we talking about.

      Farcical “arguments” aduced by the signatories of the above offensive document abound to the extent that, when all relevant facts are considered, those proud signatories could only expect communal pitty and sadness that some in our fold – and I really don’t care what the non Jews on the list appear to be intellectually – have reached such pathetic levels of delusion.

      The prevailing ethos among palestinians is one of hatred and immediate disposition to violence toward all matters Jewish. This dangerous state of affairs is not incidental, but solidly acquired through the evident strategy of all levels of palestinian authority of incitement of their mob against Israel and Jews in general. I need not develop the point. It is a well known given.
      Within this climate of active enmity, Israel has perfetced its startegy of defence to the finest judicial process. The accuracy with which Israel targets perpetrators of a vast range of criminal activities against the Jewish State and its citizens is reflected in the HIGHEST percenatage of convictions attained by the courts in terrorist cases against palestinians. A staggering 99.74 rate of convictions !!!!!! The rate of nearly ONE HUNDRED PERCENT means that almost ALL those palestinians who find themselves incarcerated are corectly presumed to be proven criminals. Therefore they DO belong in Israeli jails.
      Considering that the average conviction term is 8.3 years per accused/arrested/detainee and also considering that the time served prior to convinction is included in the total time of conviction, the “unjust” detention pre-trial does NOT constitute a vioation of the detainees rights. Therefore they do not spend more time in jail than legally “deserved”.
      The notion of speed is as farcical as the claim that “due proces” does not take place.
      Considering the extent of the criminality among the palestinians in the current matter, completing files to satisfy a proper judicial prosecution must take a suitable time. Considering also the acute rate of recidivism among our little innocent lambs , the famous benefit of the doubt is all but gone from the entire system.
      The above is only a succint look at a far more complex problem , but accurate enough to demonstrate the incongruous and ill intended nature of the whole name list exercise, patently stupid in which mindless names have plunged head first onto a concrete foundation of known criminal realities ; actually headless first.
      So, what point has been missed !!???

  14. Michelle says:

    Should bring back death penitence in Israel than there wouldn’t be this kind of problems from people who don’t have clue what they talking about, If they would experience 1% of what the Israelis have than there wouldn’t be such stupid list.

  15. David says:

    What a bizarre posting!
    all the usual suspects (except me – how come I wasn’t included?) and a totally stupid (but not unexpected) off-topic response from ECAJ’s Danny Lamm.
    Danny, the petition opposes ‘detention without charge’.
    This means there has NOT been a trial, so your alleged ‘child terrorist’ is neither a convicted terrorist nor even one charged with terrorism offences. So it is an allegation by an arresting officer alone.
    I am sure Danny Lamm would not like to be detained indefinitely with no charge against him.
    To be fair, readers should be aware that John Howard passed, and Labor has not reversed, similarly draconian detention provisions for suspected ‘terrorists’ no matter how flimsy the evidence.
    These are very dangerous laws and procedures.
    The fact that Hamas, Hezbollah and Ahmadinejad are awful doesn’t require a petition on human rights and decency to compare Israel to them.

    • David says:

      Let us press the PAUSE button a wee moment here Mr. David .
      Are you aware that Hanas, Hizbollah, PFLP, PDFLP, etc etc etc etc
      are organisations that are RESISTING the brutal , greedy & cruel OCCUPATION of Palestine for many decades . Yes sir ! Brutal, greedy & cruel ! Does anyone disagree ?

      • Otto Waldmann says:

        Let’s press the REALITY button !!
        All those organisations have been rightfully declared by the United Nations TERRORIST ILLEGAL organisations. As such their methods of choice are: brutality, crime, terror etc.etc. all types of activities all normal people oppose.

        • David says:

          Mr. Otto Waldmann, I would suggest, encourage & invite you also to pop over to the occupied West Bank , travel around [ you will be PERFECTLY safe ] & see for yourself the conditions under which the Palestinians have been living for decades – & still do today.
          The activities of the Zionists/ Israelis/Jews/ IDF ( Israeli Occupation Force) in the territories are , to use your words, nothing short of : “…brutality, crime, terror etc.etc. all types of activities all normal people oppose…”
          Then return & look me in the eye & tell me I don’t know what I am talking about.
          Are you game ?

          • Otto Waldmann says:

            I have been there !!!
            What struck me was the intense complexion of hatred displayed by those you seem so emotionally attached to.
            Constant, relentless manfestations of enmity against everything Jewish by the palestinians and a vast assortment of their allies in the process, provide torrents of reasons for Israel to stay well on course in making sure that people like them do not succeeed, as much as I feel responsible to make sure that people like you will not prevail in this brutal distortion of the known reality.

            Are you also telling me that palestinians live in what……conditions !!!???
            Because if you are trying to imply misery, poverty, lack of educatuon etc., then I would like to see that you are “game” enough to add your financial contribution to the recent NINETY MILLION AUD gone down your palestinian sewer.

  16. David says:

    As a signatory, I’d first like to thank J-Wire for publishing the petition. Secondly, I’d like to thank the ECAJ for taking the trouble to respond.

    For the record, it’s wrong for Dr Lamm to write that the signatories don’t speak out about atrocities against Israel or that the Jewish signatories are not active in the Jewish community (some are and some aren’t) or have little knowledge of what is going on in Israel or the Occupied Territories.

    With respect to the ending of the hunger strike, the deal was done with Israel after this petition had begun circulating and the wording hasn’t been changed. However, despite some important concessions Israel made, mandatory detention continues and, while the 6 month period can no longer be renewed indefinitely without evidence being submitted against the detainee, this evidence will continue to be submitted in secret.

    Ban Ki Moon has called on Israel to end mandatory detention and either put the prisoners on trial or release them. On what basis can this policy be justified or supported?

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