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	Comments on: Response to Gold and Singer	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Everett Benson		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/response-to-gold-and-singer/#comment-15794</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Everett Benson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2012 09:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=12997#comment-15794</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Looking over the exchanges between Slezak and Singer-Gold, it is really striking to see how verbosely and disingenuously Slezak covers over and simply refuses to address even one of the &quot;five detailed challenges&quot; and other factual arguments made by Singer.  This is openly a confession of intellectual capitulation (and to that degree concedes victory to Singer) but also reveals the chiefly irrational sources for the continuing allegedly &quot;moral&quot; anti-Israel stances of Slezak.  I was also surprised at the authorities Slezak invoked to support his own views.  Almost all are notoriously far-leftist and anti-Zionist people known for spouting the Palestinian propaganda line and echoing their most obvious falsehoods -- and this certainly includes Amira Hass, married to a Palestinian and living in the West Bank, Gideon Levy, the Haaretz editor who has called for BDS against the state of Israel in European BDS conferences, Ilan Pappe who espouses a Communist, if not Trotsky-ite anti-Zionism, consorts with Palestinians, not Israelis, and who after complaining that less than 1% of the academics there agree with him (showing how very extreme his views are) no longer even lives in Israel, and so on and so forth.  By Slezak&#039;s chosen heroes one can judge him and his credibility.  I also wonder at his naming of Benny Morris, since as I suppose he knows Morris has abandoned and revised his early revisionist positions (after Efraim Karsh&#039;s crushing demolition of his revisionist &quot;scholarship&quot; and that of other revisionists, in Fabricating Israeli History: The &#039;New Historians&#039; [2nd ed. 2000]) and now Morris repudiates the sorts of claims Slezak holds fast to, giving pretty devastating disproofs of them in fact, and admitting that he pushed his previous positions largely because he thought the Palestinians really might be willing to live with a Jewish state and only needed to have their anti-Zionist narrative at least partly accepted -- but following the collapse of the Camp David peace talks in 2000, and Arafat&#039;s response of the Intifada, he finally understood that Palestinian rejectionism had nothing to do with so-called &quot;oppression&quot; nor will it be alleviated by any Israeli concessions, but instead has everything to do with the simple (and repeatedly expressed -- in Arabic) Palestinian/Arab/ Muslim refusal to live with a Jewish, or even a non-Arab, non-Muslim state in the Middle East, however tiny it might be (thus the Palestinian stress on the &quot;Right of Return,&quot; and on the non-existence of any Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem, the West Bank nor Israel as such, meaning that all the debates about whether Israel should hand over 90, 97, or 98% of the West Bank are simply irrelevant).  On this see Morris&#039;s One State, Two States (2009).

The nature and substance of Slezak&#039;s criticisms can be assessed by a charge he singles out and particularly reproaches Singer and Gold for not addressing, namely: &quot;To take just one form of discrimination under the occupation, do Jewish-only roads in the West Bank derive their justification from the purported history that Gold and Singer recite?&quot;  He evidently does not know that these are actually not even &quot;Jewish-only roads,&quot; but roads accessible to all Israeli citizens, Jewish and other, who wish to visit settlements without having to fear road-side bombs, sniper attacks and the like.  Therefore Israeli Arabs and non-Jewish tourists can also use these roads.  They were built during the Intifada for security purposes only too often shown to be necessary considering Palestinian terrorism.  This obviously did not and cannot occur to Slezak.  For him, it is merely &quot;discrimination.&quot;  Right there is the problem with his whole outlook.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking over the exchanges between Slezak and Singer-Gold, it is really striking to see how verbosely and disingenuously Slezak covers over and simply refuses to address even one of the &#8220;five detailed challenges&#8221; and other factual arguments made by Singer.  This is openly a confession of intellectual capitulation (and to that degree concedes victory to Singer) but also reveals the chiefly irrational sources for the continuing allegedly &#8220;moral&#8221; anti-Israel stances of Slezak.  I was also surprised at the authorities Slezak invoked to support his own views.  Almost all are notoriously far-leftist and anti-Zionist people known for spouting the Palestinian propaganda line and echoing their most obvious falsehoods &#8212; and this certainly includes Amira Hass, married to a Palestinian and living in the West Bank, Gideon Levy, the Haaretz editor who has called for BDS against the state of Israel in European BDS conferences, Ilan Pappe who espouses a Communist, if not Trotsky-ite anti-Zionism, consorts with Palestinians, not Israelis, and who after complaining that less than 1% of the academics there agree with him (showing how very extreme his views are) no longer even lives in Israel, and so on and so forth.  By Slezak&#8217;s chosen heroes one can judge him and his credibility.  I also wonder at his naming of Benny Morris, since as I suppose he knows Morris has abandoned and revised his early revisionist positions (after Efraim Karsh&#8217;s crushing demolition of his revisionist &#8220;scholarship&#8221; and that of other revisionists, in Fabricating Israeli History: The &#8216;New Historians&#8217; [2nd ed. 2000]) and now Morris repudiates the sorts of claims Slezak holds fast to, giving pretty devastating disproofs of them in fact, and admitting that he pushed his previous positions largely because he thought the Palestinians really might be willing to live with a Jewish state and only needed to have their anti-Zionist narrative at least partly accepted &#8212; but following the collapse of the Camp David peace talks in 2000, and Arafat&#8217;s response of the Intifada, he finally understood that Palestinian rejectionism had nothing to do with so-called &#8220;oppression&#8221; nor will it be alleviated by any Israeli concessions, but instead has everything to do with the simple (and repeatedly expressed &#8212; in Arabic) Palestinian/Arab/ Muslim refusal to live with a Jewish, or even a non-Arab, non-Muslim state in the Middle East, however tiny it might be (thus the Palestinian stress on the &#8220;Right of Return,&#8221; and on the non-existence of any Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem, the West Bank nor Israel as such, meaning that all the debates about whether Israel should hand over 90, 97, or 98% of the West Bank are simply irrelevant).  On this see Morris&#8217;s One State, Two States (2009).</p>
<p>The nature and substance of Slezak&#8217;s criticisms can be assessed by a charge he singles out and particularly reproaches Singer and Gold for not addressing, namely: &#8220;To take just one form of discrimination under the occupation, do Jewish-only roads in the West Bank derive their justification from the purported history that Gold and Singer recite?&#8221;  He evidently does not know that these are actually not even &#8220;Jewish-only roads,&#8221; but roads accessible to all Israeli citizens, Jewish and other, who wish to visit settlements without having to fear road-side bombs, sniper attacks and the like.  Therefore Israeli Arabs and non-Jewish tourists can also use these roads.  They were built during the Intifada for security purposes only too often shown to be necessary considering Palestinian terrorism.  This obviously did not and cannot occur to Slezak.  For him, it is merely &#8220;discrimination.&#8221;  Right there is the problem with his whole outlook.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stewart Mills		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/response-to-gold-and-singer/#comment-4258</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stewart Mills]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 2010 09:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=12997#comment-4258</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Peter Slezak&#039;s writing style, logic and humanity is par excellence.  Thank you Peter for fearlessly challenging traditional stereotypes.  The winds of change are in the air.  A new day for Jewish-Israelis, Palestinian-Israelis and Palestinians is coming because of people like yourself.  What a wonderful example you give when you cite the work of Uri Avnery, Jeff Halper, Illan Pappe, Richard Goldstone,  B&#039;Tselem, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Anna Baltzer and the like.  Thank you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Slezak&#8217;s writing style, logic and humanity is par excellence.  Thank you Peter for fearlessly challenging traditional stereotypes.  The winds of change are in the air.  A new day for Jewish-Israelis, Palestinian-Israelis and Palestinians is coming because of people like yourself.  What a wonderful example you give when you cite the work of Uri Avnery, Jeff Halper, Illan Pappe, Richard Goldstone,  B&#8217;Tselem, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Anna Baltzer and the like.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: david singer		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/response-to-gold-and-singer/#comment-4018</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[david singer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=12997#comment-4018</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Peter - 

I  gave you five specific cases of Arab lies and propaganda that you propagated in your article – which I claimed were factually false or misleading. The veracity of these five matters relied on by you are critical to a proper understanding of the conflict, the reasons that have failed to see it resolved for the last 130 years and that are preventing it being concluded at the present time.

You have not in your latest letter above sought to deny my claim that they are false and misleading for the reasons I fully detailed.

You, as an intellectual, surely understand that people formulate views on the basis of facts presented to them in material they read.  If people are fooled into believing facts that are demonstrably false or misleading then this will have a major bearing on how they view any particular issue.

Your intellectual reputation and that of the other intellectuals you name – who apparently according to you are sprouting the same five pieces of Arab propaganda – is now on public display and you cannot run away those five specific claims you have made.

I challenge you to specifically rebut my claims in relation to the five specific examples given by me.

You further ask – as if almost admitting your five statements were incorrect:
“Even if, for the sake of argument, we fully grant the history lessons of Gold and Singer, how can this justify the cruelty, crimes and collective punishment today against the Palestinian people?

Peter – Cruelty, crimes and collective punishment have not been the exclusive preserve of the Palestinian Arabs. 

Jews have also been – and continue to be – victims of this long running conflict that has defied any settlement for the last 130 years and has caused misery and suffering on both sides.

Jews being blown up on buses or in discotheques or pizza bars cannot be justified either. Jews being slaughtered in the Hebron massacre in 1929 or during the Arab Revolt in 1936 is apparently to be overlooked – not to mention the many wars since 1948 that have seen Jews give their lives to preserve their very existence. Having thousands of rockets indiscriminately fired into Jewish civilian population centres for years on end seems to not concern you. Drive by murders of pregnant Jewish women and Jewish children becoming orphans supposedly evokes no sympathy from you.

I feel the Jewish pain as I feel the Arab pain. This conflict is not a one sided affair. It needs to be resolved in the interests of both Jews and Arabs.

We would not be having this argument today – and the Palestinian Arabs would have had their own Jew free independent state long ago – and in an area far greater than they are currently demanding – had they:
1.	Accepted the Peel Commission proposals in 1937
2.	Accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947
3.	Not sent six Arab armies to invade Palestine to wipe out the nascent Jewish State in 1948
4.	Not voted to unify the West Bank and the East Bank in a renamed state called Jordan in 1950
5.	Created an independent state between Jordan and Israel at any time between 1948-1967 when what they are supposedly fighting for today  – and more – could have been created by the Arab League at the stroke of a pen in those 19 years whilst not one Jew was living in the West Bank or Gaza.
6.	Refused to negotiate with Israel between 1967-1993.
7.	Rejected offers made by Israel in 2001 and 2008.

Their refusal to do a deal on so many occasions has been driven by their unyielding opposition to accept that the Jewish people have the right to self- determination in a State where they comprise a majority of the population.

57 such Moslem countries exist today pursuant to that principle– 21 of which happen to be Arab. Why do the Arabs continue to deny the Jews the same right in their ancestral, biblical and internationally recognized homeland?

The Arabs must accept the consequences of their actions.  Their decisions to oppose Jewish self-determination have come at a very heavy price in terms of continued suffering for themselves – which could have been eliminated had they adopted a more reasoned and compromising approach.

Blaming their continuing victimhood solely on the Jews – and having Jews argue in that manner based on false and misleading Arab propaganda – is your perfect entitlement to propagate if you desire.

It is certainly not my viewpoint.

When I see these false Arab claims repeated ad nauseam  – especially by Jewish intellectuals – then I will not remain silent.

So Peter  – if you are prepared to reply to this letter I would ask that you don’t go off on a tangent once again.

I have made five detailed challenges to the credibility of five specific statements made by you.
Five responses are required.

Please let me have them.

If you wish to specifically rebut the new facts I have presented in this letter feel free to do so and I will answer them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter &#8211; </p>
<p>I  gave you five specific cases of Arab lies and propaganda that you propagated in your article – which I claimed were factually false or misleading. The veracity of these five matters relied on by you are critical to a proper understanding of the conflict, the reasons that have failed to see it resolved for the last 130 years and that are preventing it being concluded at the present time.</p>
<p>You have not in your latest letter above sought to deny my claim that they are false and misleading for the reasons I fully detailed.</p>
<p>You, as an intellectual, surely understand that people formulate views on the basis of facts presented to them in material they read.  If people are fooled into believing facts that are demonstrably false or misleading then this will have a major bearing on how they view any particular issue.</p>
<p>Your intellectual reputation and that of the other intellectuals you name – who apparently according to you are sprouting the same five pieces of Arab propaganda – is now on public display and you cannot run away those five specific claims you have made.</p>
<p>I challenge you to specifically rebut my claims in relation to the five specific examples given by me.</p>
<p>You further ask – as if almost admitting your five statements were incorrect:<br />
“Even if, for the sake of argument, we fully grant the history lessons of Gold and Singer, how can this justify the cruelty, crimes and collective punishment today against the Palestinian people?</p>
<p>Peter – Cruelty, crimes and collective punishment have not been the exclusive preserve of the Palestinian Arabs. </p>
<p>Jews have also been – and continue to be – victims of this long running conflict that has defied any settlement for the last 130 years and has caused misery and suffering on both sides.</p>
<p>Jews being blown up on buses or in discotheques or pizza bars cannot be justified either. Jews being slaughtered in the Hebron massacre in 1929 or during the Arab Revolt in 1936 is apparently to be overlooked – not to mention the many wars since 1948 that have seen Jews give their lives to preserve their very existence. Having thousands of rockets indiscriminately fired into Jewish civilian population centres for years on end seems to not concern you. Drive by murders of pregnant Jewish women and Jewish children becoming orphans supposedly evokes no sympathy from you.</p>
<p>I feel the Jewish pain as I feel the Arab pain. This conflict is not a one sided affair. It needs to be resolved in the interests of both Jews and Arabs.</p>
<p>We would not be having this argument today – and the Palestinian Arabs would have had their own Jew free independent state long ago – and in an area far greater than they are currently demanding – had they:<br />
1.	Accepted the Peel Commission proposals in 1937<br />
2.	Accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947<br />
3.	Not sent six Arab armies to invade Palestine to wipe out the nascent Jewish State in 1948<br />
4.	Not voted to unify the West Bank and the East Bank in a renamed state called Jordan in 1950<br />
5.	Created an independent state between Jordan and Israel at any time between 1948-1967 when what they are supposedly fighting for today  – and more – could have been created by the Arab League at the stroke of a pen in those 19 years whilst not one Jew was living in the West Bank or Gaza.<br />
6.	Refused to negotiate with Israel between 1967-1993.<br />
7.	Rejected offers made by Israel in 2001 and 2008.</p>
<p>Their refusal to do a deal on so many occasions has been driven by their unyielding opposition to accept that the Jewish people have the right to self- determination in a State where they comprise a majority of the population.</p>
<p>57 such Moslem countries exist today pursuant to that principle– 21 of which happen to be Arab. Why do the Arabs continue to deny the Jews the same right in their ancestral, biblical and internationally recognized homeland?</p>
<p>The Arabs must accept the consequences of their actions.  Their decisions to oppose Jewish self-determination have come at a very heavy price in terms of continued suffering for themselves – which could have been eliminated had they adopted a more reasoned and compromising approach.</p>
<p>Blaming their continuing victimhood solely on the Jews – and having Jews argue in that manner based on false and misleading Arab propaganda – is your perfect entitlement to propagate if you desire.</p>
<p>It is certainly not my viewpoint.</p>
<p>When I see these false Arab claims repeated ad nauseam  – especially by Jewish intellectuals – then I will not remain silent.</p>
<p>So Peter  – if you are prepared to reply to this letter I would ask that you don’t go off on a tangent once again.</p>
<p>I have made five detailed challenges to the credibility of five specific statements made by you.<br />
Five responses are required.</p>
<p>Please let me have them.</p>
<p>If you wish to specifically rebut the new facts I have presented in this letter feel free to do so and I will answer them.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Paul Winter		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/response-to-gold-and-singer/#comment-4012</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Winter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=12997#comment-4012</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Slezak is being precious in complaining at length about the less than fawning tones of Gold&#039;s and Singer&#039;s obervations on Baltzer. One must agree that that pisher is not a &quot;useful idiot&quot;; useful does not apply to her from a Jewish perspective. But that perspective is not one the Slezak can comprehend. More disturbing are Slezak&#039;s sources of authority for his perspective; every one warped, far left, radical anti-Israeli. His arguments in support of Balzer insult our intelligence; they are distorted and dishonest. The Arab narrative is a tissue of lies and no person with any concern for facts can take them seriously, nor fail to be offended by people who identify as Jews only to better ingratiate themselves  with their comrades. Finally, Slazak talks of Israel&#039;s failure to  comply with international law, when we know full well that Israel complies with the spirit and letter of the law and its enemies who Slezak and Baltzeer support, distort and invent laws to suit their political agenda: destroying Israel and denying the Jewish people self-determination.  Worse still, when there are clear laws Israel&#039;s enemies flout them eg Shalit&#039;s kidnapping and incarceration, about which Slezak is silent.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slezak is being precious in complaining at length about the less than fawning tones of Gold&#8217;s and Singer&#8217;s obervations on Baltzer. One must agree that that pisher is not a &#8220;useful idiot&#8221;; useful does not apply to her from a Jewish perspective. But that perspective is not one the Slezak can comprehend. More disturbing are Slezak&#8217;s sources of authority for his perspective; every one warped, far left, radical anti-Israeli. His arguments in support of Balzer insult our intelligence; they are distorted and dishonest. The Arab narrative is a tissue of lies and no person with any concern for facts can take them seriously, nor fail to be offended by people who identify as Jews only to better ingratiate themselves  with their comrades. Finally, Slazak talks of Israel&#8217;s failure to  comply with international law, when we know full well that Israel complies with the spirit and letter of the law and its enemies who Slezak and Baltzeer support, distort and invent laws to suit their political agenda: destroying Israel and denying the Jewish people self-determination.  Worse still, when there are clear laws Israel&#8217;s enemies flout them eg Shalit&#8217;s kidnapping and incarceration, about which Slezak is silent.</p>
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