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	Comments on: Religious Liberals: On the Way Down?&#8230;asks Bill Rubinstein	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Ilan BUCHMAN		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280716</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ilan BUCHMAN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2017 22:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280716</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280522&quot;&gt;Bill Rubinstein&lt;/a&gt;.

These are your words Professor Rubinstin, not mine. You clearly used the word &quot;mainstream&quot;. See below:

&quot; In America and elsewhere, many mainstream Protestant denominations have become little more than left-wing activist groups, advocating every and any current nostrum of the secular left as a matter of course.  (Nearly all of these churches, it should be noted, are also haters of Israel, to the extent that many Jewish groups regard them as anti-semitic.)&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280522">Bill Rubinstein</a>.</p>
<p>These are your words Professor Rubinstin, not mine. You clearly used the word &#8220;mainstream&#8221;. See below:</p>
<p>&#8221; In America and elsewhere, many mainstream Protestant denominations have become little more than left-wing activist groups, advocating every and any current nostrum of the secular left as a matter of course.  (Nearly all of these churches, it should be noted, are also haters of Israel, to the extent that many Jewish groups regard them as anti-semitic.)&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill Rubinstein		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280522</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Rubinstein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280522</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280246&quot;&gt;Dr Ilan Buchman&lt;/a&gt;.

To put the matter bluntly, Dr. Buchman doesn&#039;t know what he is talking about.
I referred to liberal Protestant denominations, not to &quot;all&quot; mainstream Protestant denominations, and what I claimed can be confirmed by half an hour on the internet. I mentioned three liberal Protestant denomination, the Presbyterian Church USA, the United Church of Christ, and the United Church of Canada.
Concerning the Presbyterians,he should have a look at its Wikipedia entry under &quot;Israel-Palestine Conflict&quot;: &quot;In June 2004 the [Church&#039;s] General Assembly met... and adopted by a vote of 431-62 a resolution that called upon [it] &#039;to initiate a process of phased, selective disinvestment in the multinational corporations operating in Israel ... A second resolution, calling for the end to the construction of a wall by the state of Israel passed ... In August 2011 [its] American National Middle Eastern caucus endorsed the boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign against Israel. In January 2014 [the Church] published &quot;Zionism Unsettled&quot;... the Simon Wiesenthal Center described the study guide &quot;a hit-piece outside all norms of interfaith dialogue. It is a compendium of distortions, ignorance, and outright lies ... that tragically emanated all too often from elites within the church.&quot;
Concerning the United Church of Christ, have a look at its Wikipedia entry headed &quot;Statement on the Relationship Between Israel and Palestinians&quot;: It &quot;passed two resolutions concerning the conflict between Israel and Palestinians. One called for the use of economic leverage to promote peace in the Middle East, which can include such measures as ... selective disinvestment from companies which profit from the continuing Israel-Palestinian conflict. The other resolution, named &#039;Tear Down the Wall,&#039; calls upon Israel to remove the separation barrier ... Opponents of the resolution noted that the wall&#039;s purpose is to prevent terrorist attacks, and that the resolution does not call for a stop to these attacks. The Simon Wiesenthal Center stated that the resolutions were &#039;functionally anti-semitic&#039;.&quot; Concerning the United Church of Canada, a story in the Times of Israel, &quot;United Church of Canada Passes Israel Divestment Resolution&quot; (12 August 2015) stated that &quot;The United Church of Canada passed a resolution on Tuesday ... encouraging divestment from Israel in order &#039;to address the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories by the State of Israel.&#039; The new resolution called for &#039;initiating and developing a program of education and advocacy in cooperation with our partners, related to divestment from and economic sanctions against all corporations and institutions complicit in and benefiting from the illegal occupation&#039;.&quot; It was described by the Toronto based Friends of the Simon Wiesenthal Center as &#039;nothing less than an assault on the Jewish people.&quot; (National Post, 5 December 2013).
What I have set out here is only the tip of an enormous iceberg.
For instance, despite the excellent record of the Quakers (the Society of Friends) in assisting Jewish refugees from the Nazis, its American Friends Service Committee was described by Jacob Neusner in 1993 as &quot;the most militant and aggressive of Christian anti-Israel groups.&quot; All of these denominations, by the way, are declining in membership at an almost unbelievable rate. The General Secretary of the notorious roof body of Protestant denominations, the World Council of Churches, stated that &quot;We support the Palestinians. The WCC supports the Palestinians, because they are in the right.&quot; (Wikipedia
Despite being totally ignorant about this subject, Dr. Buchman has attacked me in ad hominem terms. Bill Rubinstein]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280246">Dr Ilan Buchman</a>.</p>
<p>To put the matter bluntly, Dr. Buchman doesn&#8217;t know what he is talking about.<br />
I referred to liberal Protestant denominations, not to &#8220;all&#8221; mainstream Protestant denominations, and what I claimed can be confirmed by half an hour on the internet. I mentioned three liberal Protestant denomination, the Presbyterian Church USA, the United Church of Christ, and the United Church of Canada.<br />
Concerning the Presbyterians,he should have a look at its Wikipedia entry under &#8220;Israel-Palestine Conflict&#8221;: &#8220;In June 2004 the [Church&#8217;s] General Assembly met&#8230; and adopted by a vote of 431-62 a resolution that called upon [it] &#8216;to initiate a process of phased, selective disinvestment in the multinational corporations operating in Israel &#8230; A second resolution, calling for the end to the construction of a wall by the state of Israel passed &#8230; In August 2011 [its] American National Middle Eastern caucus endorsed the boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign against Israel. In January 2014 [the Church] published &#8220;Zionism Unsettled&#8221;&#8230; the Simon Wiesenthal Center described the study guide &#8220;a hit-piece outside all norms of interfaith dialogue. It is a compendium of distortions, ignorance, and outright lies &#8230; that tragically emanated all too often from elites within the church.&#8221;<br />
Concerning the United Church of Christ, have a look at its Wikipedia entry headed &#8220;Statement on the Relationship Between Israel and Palestinians&#8221;: It &#8220;passed two resolutions concerning the conflict between Israel and Palestinians. One called for the use of economic leverage to promote peace in the Middle East, which can include such measures as &#8230; selective disinvestment from companies which profit from the continuing Israel-Palestinian conflict. The other resolution, named &#8216;Tear Down the Wall,&#8217; calls upon Israel to remove the separation barrier &#8230; Opponents of the resolution noted that the wall&#8217;s purpose is to prevent terrorist attacks, and that the resolution does not call for a stop to these attacks. The Simon Wiesenthal Center stated that the resolutions were &#8216;functionally anti-semitic&#8217;.&#8221; Concerning the United Church of Canada, a story in the Times of Israel, &#8220;United Church of Canada Passes Israel Divestment Resolution&#8221; (12 August 2015) stated that &#8220;The United Church of Canada passed a resolution on Tuesday &#8230; encouraging divestment from Israel in order &#8216;to address the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories by the State of Israel.&#8217; The new resolution called for &#8216;initiating and developing a program of education and advocacy in cooperation with our partners, related to divestment from and economic sanctions against all corporations and institutions complicit in and benefiting from the illegal occupation&#8217;.&#8221; It was described by the Toronto based Friends of the Simon Wiesenthal Center as &#8216;nothing less than an assault on the Jewish people.&#8221; (National Post, 5 December 2013).<br />
What I have set out here is only the tip of an enormous iceberg.<br />
For instance, despite the excellent record of the Quakers (the Society of Friends) in assisting Jewish refugees from the Nazis, its American Friends Service Committee was described by Jacob Neusner in 1993 as &#8220;the most militant and aggressive of Christian anti-Israel groups.&#8221; All of these denominations, by the way, are declining in membership at an almost unbelievable rate. The General Secretary of the notorious roof body of Protestant denominations, the World Council of Churches, stated that &#8220;We support the Palestinians. The WCC supports the Palestinians, because they are in the right.&#8221; (Wikipedia<br />
Despite being totally ignorant about this subject, Dr. Buchman has attacked me in ad hominem terms. Bill Rubinstein</p>
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		<title>
		By: Doodie Ringelblum		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280499</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doodie Ringelblum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2017 04:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280499</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Curious comments from a professor of history. 
 What would the good professor have said 100 years ago when Orthodoxy was waning, both in Europe and the USA, and Reform on the rise at least in the latter.  Would he have predicted the demise of Orthodoxy then? If not - why does he predict it for the reform movements now. 
(Also note that the fastest growing shul in Melbourne is Kehilat Koleinu which isn&#039;t reform - it&#039;s entirely secular).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curious comments from a professor of history.<br />
 What would the good professor have said 100 years ago when Orthodoxy was waning, both in Europe and the USA, and Reform on the rise at least in the latter.  Would he have predicted the demise of Orthodoxy then? If not &#8211; why does he predict it for the reform movements now.<br />
(Also note that the fastest growing shul in Melbourne is Kehilat Koleinu which isn&#8217;t reform &#8211; it&#8217;s entirely secular).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rabbi Nicole Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280419</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rabbi Nicole Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280419</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My response can be found at:

http://www.jwire.com.au/davar-acher/#more-80172]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My response can be found at:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jwire.com.au/davar-acher/#more-80172" rel="ugc">http://www.jwire.com.au/davar-acher/#more-80172</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280315</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 13:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280315</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280196&quot;&gt;Lulu Bell&lt;/a&gt;.

Mr. Bell, I am not surprised that you don&#039;t understand my comments.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280196">Lulu Bell</a>.</p>
<p>Mr. Bell, I am not surprised that you don&#8217;t understand my comments.</p>
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		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280271</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280271</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-279841&quot;&gt;Henry Herzog&lt;/a&gt;.

The sizeable NO vote had nothing to do with the notion/practice of democracy, none of the NO proponents claimed that the process and the result  were undemocratic.
Most of the cry phrases on the &quot;Yes&quot; banners were based on fallacies.  &quot;Equality&quot; turned into a false emotional cum hysterical claim. Logically, there is no equality between a variety of DISTINCTIVE types of human interactions. 
Wont go on about a done deal, but, to the issues at hand, the pretence that a number of wonton departures from fundamental Judaic principles and practices, render the novel trait BETTER entrenched in the millenarian faith is beyond the witz.
Far more Australian Jews belong formally to the NON Liberal shade, just count the number of such shuls  and their iNplicit membership compared to the...opposite.  Otherwise Bill Rubinstein gives a credible description of the realities on the ground and above, in the spiritual stratosphere...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-279841">Henry Herzog</a>.</p>
<p>The sizeable NO vote had nothing to do with the notion/practice of democracy, none of the NO proponents claimed that the process and the result  were undemocratic.<br />
Most of the cry phrases on the &#8220;Yes&#8221; banners were based on fallacies.  &#8220;Equality&#8221; turned into a false emotional cum hysterical claim. Logically, there is no equality between a variety of DISTINCTIVE types of human interactions.<br />
Wont go on about a done deal, but, to the issues at hand, the pretence that a number of wonton departures from fundamental Judaic principles and practices, render the novel trait BETTER entrenched in the millenarian faith is beyond the witz.<br />
Far more Australian Jews belong formally to the NON Liberal shade, just count the number of such shuls  and their iNplicit membership compared to the&#8230;opposite.  Otherwise Bill Rubinstein gives a credible description of the realities on the ground and above, in the spiritual stratosphere&#8230;</p>
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		By: Dr Ilan Buchman		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280246</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr Ilan Buchman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 06:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280246</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I assume J-Wire is no different to other publications willing to generate controversy, however by giving Bill Rubinstein a central column to expound his prejudiced and outdated views,it achieves no purpose other that peddling unfounded and ill founded platitudes. Rubinstein&#039;s view that nearly all of the mainstream Protestant denominations are also haters of Israel is frankly ludicrous and baseless as some of his other views. As a professor of history he should have known better than to support his views on the basis of non-existing evidence of &quot;many Jewish groups&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume J-Wire is no different to other publications willing to generate controversy, however by giving Bill Rubinstein a central column to expound his prejudiced and outdated views,it achieves no purpose other that peddling unfounded and ill founded platitudes. Rubinstein&#8217;s view that nearly all of the mainstream Protestant denominations are also haters of Israel is frankly ludicrous and baseless as some of his other views. As a professor of history he should have known better than to support his views on the basis of non-existing evidence of &#8220;many Jewish groups&#8221;.</p>
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		By: Bill Rubinstein		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280206</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Rubinstein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 01:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280206</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If David Zyngier has access to the membership statistics of the Progressive and Masorti synagogues, I hope that he will post them on this site, especially if they include comparative statistics from 20 or 30 years ago. Within the next few months, these synagogues, and particularly Temple Beth Israel in Melbourne, will be holding (because there is a backlog) probably dozens of very visible homosexual weddings. It will be interesting to see their effect on the existing membership. My guess - and it is only a guess -is that many members, including especially older members and normal families with children, will head for the hills pronto, and that the number of normal weddings and bar mitzvot held there will decline. Also, I was never a &quot;cold war warrior,&quot; but I am very proud to say that I attended many rallies and demos on behalf of persecuted Soviet Jewry when the USSR existed.
Robert Weil: I know of Dennis Praeger, but have actually never read anything by him, and did not see the video you noted. If you look at the entries on these liberal Protestant churches on google, you will find many many articles by Protestants making the same point, that their gung ho leftism has been the kiss of death in terms of membership. Traditional and fundamentalist churches in the US, in contrast, have done well - for instance, the number of Mormons in the US had increased from 3 million in 1970 to 6.5 million today - not drastically declined, like these liberal churches.
Henry Herzog: if you are observant, I would advise you to read Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If David Zyngier has access to the membership statistics of the Progressive and Masorti synagogues, I hope that he will post them on this site, especially if they include comparative statistics from 20 or 30 years ago. Within the next few months, these synagogues, and particularly Temple Beth Israel in Melbourne, will be holding (because there is a backlog) probably dozens of very visible homosexual weddings. It will be interesting to see their effect on the existing membership. My guess &#8211; and it is only a guess -is that many members, including especially older members and normal families with children, will head for the hills pronto, and that the number of normal weddings and bar mitzvot held there will decline. Also, I was never a &#8220;cold war warrior,&#8221; but I am very proud to say that I attended many rallies and demos on behalf of persecuted Soviet Jewry when the USSR existed.<br />
Robert Weil: I know of Dennis Praeger, but have actually never read anything by him, and did not see the video you noted. If you look at the entries on these liberal Protestant churches on google, you will find many many articles by Protestants making the same point, that their gung ho leftism has been the kiss of death in terms of membership. Traditional and fundamentalist churches in the US, in contrast, have done well &#8211; for instance, the number of Mormons in the US had increased from 3 million in 1970 to 6.5 million today &#8211; not drastically declined, like these liberal churches.<br />
Henry Herzog: if you are observant, I would advise you to read Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lulu Bell		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280196</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lulu Bell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 00:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280196</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-279967&quot;&gt;Otto Waldmann&lt;/a&gt;.

I see no picture of any chassidishe jew. Yes, I wear a full sheital, have a large family (KNH) and I vote Labor and voted yes.Mr Waldman, I do not understand your comment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-279967">Otto Waldmann</a>.</p>
<p>I see no picture of any chassidishe jew. Yes, I wear a full sheital, have a large family (KNH) and I vote Labor and voted yes.Mr Waldman, I do not understand your comment.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Burd		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/religious-liberals-on-the-way-down-asks-bill-rubinstein/#comment-280190</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Burd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2017 00:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=80035#comment-280190</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So true Bill if only all our lefty progressive Jews would go and live on Manus !]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So true Bill if only all our lefty progressive Jews would go and live on Manus !</p>
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