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	Comments on: A rage against history&#8230;writes Clive Kessler	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/rage-history-writes-clive-kessler/#comment-127590</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=49046#comment-127590</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Current, pervasive discourse in France related, of course, to the recent tragic events, hover around a few god terms, such as Liberte, Egalite, etc, the notion of a sacred Republique and, one which is the most confusing, LAY SOCIETY.
Most commentators/ speakers use &quot;lay society&quot; as the cohesive &quot;force&quot; which should inspire all conflicting elements, these elements being, as we know, of the RELIGIOUS kind. See the contradiction !!!!

How do we deal with the perception(s) of offending behaviour, intolerant quios or straight out public campaigns !! If the Jewish community encounters public offense of the media type do we have any communal leaders or full organisations to object, write letters to editors, even sue !!! The slightest offensive incursion into antisemitism elicits immediate and strong reactions.
What about islam !!! Can they be a bit like us, Jews !! Why not !!

Muslim families have not failed at all in bringing up their children as tru muslims any less that the way i brought up my Son to be a kosher vyosher Jew.   Kessler is wrong again, muslims who have taken French residence were not allowed here on the provision that the woulkd cease to be muslims and, at this juncture this reality cannot be altered. A large mulsim community would organise itself by standards contained in their KNOWN cannons, known by the non-muslim properly informed folks.

France is not attacking islam as such, she is attacking individuals who kill and are bent on destruction due to their pathological inability to live as muslims - or whatever - in a normal way. Sharia is part of Islam as much as Chalachic notion are part of our lives. Adjustments whithout touching its fundamentals are to be promoted. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with islamophobia; I have a serious phobia for all maters, symbols, precepts Xtian and, to mine that is a perfect profile of a normal Jew. I am also developing a phobia for certai Jews who cannot understand why my phobia is part of my identity as a Jew....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Current, pervasive discourse in France related, of course, to the recent tragic events, hover around a few god terms, such as Liberte, Egalite, etc, the notion of a sacred Republique and, one which is the most confusing, LAY SOCIETY.<br />
Most commentators/ speakers use &#8220;lay society&#8221; as the cohesive &#8220;force&#8221; which should inspire all conflicting elements, these elements being, as we know, of the RELIGIOUS kind. See the contradiction !!!!</p>
<p>How do we deal with the perception(s) of offending behaviour, intolerant quios or straight out public campaigns !! If the Jewish community encounters public offense of the media type do we have any communal leaders or full organisations to object, write letters to editors, even sue !!! The slightest offensive incursion into antisemitism elicits immediate and strong reactions.<br />
What about islam !!! Can they be a bit like us, Jews !! Why not !!</p>
<p>Muslim families have not failed at all in bringing up their children as tru muslims any less that the way i brought up my Son to be a kosher vyosher Jew.   Kessler is wrong again, muslims who have taken French residence were not allowed here on the provision that the woulkd cease to be muslims and, at this juncture this reality cannot be altered. A large mulsim community would organise itself by standards contained in their KNOWN cannons, known by the non-muslim properly informed folks.</p>
<p>France is not attacking islam as such, she is attacking individuals who kill and are bent on destruction due to their pathological inability to live as muslims &#8211; or whatever &#8211; in a normal way. Sharia is part of Islam as much as Chalachic notion are part of our lives. Adjustments whithout touching its fundamentals are to be promoted. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with islamophobia; I have a serious phobia for all maters, symbols, precepts Xtian and, to mine that is a perfect profile of a normal Jew. I am also developing a phobia for certai Jews who cannot understand why my phobia is part of my identity as a Jew&#8230;.</p>
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			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/rage-history-writes-clive-kessler/#comment-127483</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2015 16:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=49046#comment-127483</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In most parts a seriously flawed presentation of history of islam and, successively, a distorted conclusive analysis.
We are offered fallacies of the highest order. The notion often peddled by Clive Kessler that &quot;islam has failed&quot; historically, that islam was, practically, &quot;defeated&quot; by  a FEW Western incursions,( such as the Napoleonic shortest incursion in ONLY ONE territory, Egypt , WITHOUT leaving in place any  alternative ethical-political system to islam ) a  totally unacceptable historic flaw in the presentation. Further, the relatively short colonial occupation by all powers - mostly French and British ) have allowed islam to function almost unperturbed while quasi political, but largely economic-administrative exploitation, function quite juxtaposed to the local religious mores/laws.
In the same vein, one may not argue that Islam was &quot;defeated&quot; or &quot;replaced&quot; in such places where it practically reigns unperturbed, unchallenged, such as the ENTIRE Arab Peninsula and, in fact even a certain Iraq where in general terms islam is not at all &quot;outlawed&quot;, factional  conflicts notwithstanding.
In concrete terms, Islam has continued in its millennarian &quot;destiny&quot; with only occasional incidents in certain important places. Islam has not ceased to exert its FULL strength at popular, majority, level in a large number of countries.  The current surge of violent reactions in an increasing number of islamic countries is based on solid popular support not just by the religious leaders , but, most importantly by the grass root solid base.
It is totally farcical to claim that &quot;fundamental islam&quot; has returned to Iran, for example. It NEVER left Iran in its reliable majority percentage of a population unaffected religiously by ANY &quot;historic&quot; changes at the level of distant urbanised, seemingly &quot;Westernised&quot; PERIPHERY of the respective society. Yes, large, gentrified cities in Iran were the periphery of a society which seemed quite comfortable with its retrograde mores and institutions. Pre Ataturk Turkey seems to fit back to its pre-Ataturk mold quite easily, urban lay/modernised opposition notwithstanding, once again.

France is faced with vast problems directly in proportion to the size of the islamic population she has absorbed in the post-colonial dozing phase. 
The amplitude of the problem requires measures which are almost impossible to institute without affecting some sacred principles French political vernacular cannot do without.
Education, judicial, social intercourse, pragmatic policing of the slightest attempts at direct intervention and many other adjacent inevitabilities preoccupy all strata, all angles of French society. It is beyond the crudest impudence for anyone outside the immediate segments of French formal concerns to imply that the locals would not be capable to UNDERSTAND their own problems. French are, by far, the most sophisticated of analysts and , also, have evolved into the MOST refined of defenders of TRUE civilised values. For the past ten days I am watching non-stop various TV channels of French debates and there is only ONE consistency in what in conveyed with force and genuine concern, i.e. the dedication of the French to retain a society determined to alter its unacceptable realities while not affecting a just and fair society France has arrived at long last after two and half centuries of articulating the MOST Providential of existential principles.

Incidentally, in all christian societies, parallel with those islamic ones, christian values AND institution have remained UNTOUCHED, whether coated in institutions seemingly &quot;separated&quot; from basic christian institutions. Let us not forget that the aim on that majestic Enlightement was separate THE CHURCH from the state, NOT the basic, fundamental ethics themselves based on that oxymoron Judaic-christian values. To this extent, the delimitations between some other religion, be it islam and christian is only apparent; a French &quot;lay society&quot; will find ALL its functioning/ethical principles in religious texts at a FIRST careful analysis. The conflict was only superficial, a successful exercise to chase out the cardinals from the &quot;reigning&quot; court, Republican as they/we call it !!! By conflicting comparison France is now faced with a conflict between a certain assertion of islam in its midst and a well established Judeo-christian society.
Where does the Jew stand, you may ask !!! I&#039;ll tell you where, in Shul, dovening !!! Otherwise, there are daily El Al flights from Paris to Tel Aviv...Over there, in my impeccable Zion, the Jewish State is stating its own case.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In most parts a seriously flawed presentation of history of islam and, successively, a distorted conclusive analysis.<br />
We are offered fallacies of the highest order. The notion often peddled by Clive Kessler that &#8220;islam has failed&#8221; historically, that islam was, practically, &#8220;defeated&#8221; by  a FEW Western incursions,( such as the Napoleonic shortest incursion in ONLY ONE territory, Egypt , WITHOUT leaving in place any  alternative ethical-political system to islam ) a  totally unacceptable historic flaw in the presentation. Further, the relatively short colonial occupation by all powers &#8211; mostly French and British ) have allowed islam to function almost unperturbed while quasi political, but largely economic-administrative exploitation, function quite juxtaposed to the local religious mores/laws.<br />
In the same vein, one may not argue that Islam was &#8220;defeated&#8221; or &#8220;replaced&#8221; in such places where it practically reigns unperturbed, unchallenged, such as the ENTIRE Arab Peninsula and, in fact even a certain Iraq where in general terms islam is not at all &#8220;outlawed&#8221;, factional  conflicts notwithstanding.<br />
In concrete terms, Islam has continued in its millennarian &#8220;destiny&#8221; with only occasional incidents in certain important places. Islam has not ceased to exert its FULL strength at popular, majority, level in a large number of countries.  The current surge of violent reactions in an increasing number of islamic countries is based on solid popular support not just by the religious leaders , but, most importantly by the grass root solid base.<br />
It is totally farcical to claim that &#8220;fundamental islam&#8221; has returned to Iran, for example. It NEVER left Iran in its reliable majority percentage of a population unaffected religiously by ANY &#8220;historic&#8221; changes at the level of distant urbanised, seemingly &#8220;Westernised&#8221; PERIPHERY of the respective society. Yes, large, gentrified cities in Iran were the periphery of a society which seemed quite comfortable with its retrograde mores and institutions. Pre Ataturk Turkey seems to fit back to its pre-Ataturk mold quite easily, urban lay/modernised opposition notwithstanding, once again.</p>
<p>France is faced with vast problems directly in proportion to the size of the islamic population she has absorbed in the post-colonial dozing phase.<br />
The amplitude of the problem requires measures which are almost impossible to institute without affecting some sacred principles French political vernacular cannot do without.<br />
Education, judicial, social intercourse, pragmatic policing of the slightest attempts at direct intervention and many other adjacent inevitabilities preoccupy all strata, all angles of French society. It is beyond the crudest impudence for anyone outside the immediate segments of French formal concerns to imply that the locals would not be capable to UNDERSTAND their own problems. French are, by far, the most sophisticated of analysts and , also, have evolved into the MOST refined of defenders of TRUE civilised values. For the past ten days I am watching non-stop various TV channels of French debates and there is only ONE consistency in what in conveyed with force and genuine concern, i.e. the dedication of the French to retain a society determined to alter its unacceptable realities while not affecting a just and fair society France has arrived at long last after two and half centuries of articulating the MOST Providential of existential principles.</p>
<p>Incidentally, in all christian societies, parallel with those islamic ones, christian values AND institution have remained UNTOUCHED, whether coated in institutions seemingly &#8220;separated&#8221; from basic christian institutions. Let us not forget that the aim on that majestic Enlightement was separate THE CHURCH from the state, NOT the basic, fundamental ethics themselves based on that oxymoron Judaic-christian values. To this extent, the delimitations between some other religion, be it islam and christian is only apparent; a French &#8220;lay society&#8221; will find ALL its functioning/ethical principles in religious texts at a FIRST careful analysis. The conflict was only superficial, a successful exercise to chase out the cardinals from the &#8220;reigning&#8221; court, Republican as they/we call it !!! By conflicting comparison France is now faced with a conflict between a certain assertion of islam in its midst and a well established Judeo-christian society.<br />
Where does the Jew stand, you may ask !!! I&#8217;ll tell you where, in Shul, dovening !!! Otherwise, there are daily El Al flights from Paris to Tel Aviv&#8230;Over there, in my impeccable Zion, the Jewish State is stating its own case.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kon Michailidis		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/rage-history-writes-clive-kessler/#comment-127381</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kon Michailidis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2015 07:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=49046#comment-127381</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is a brilliant analysis that places the conflict in a historical, civilizational context, and within Islam itself. 
The rage that certain Muslims feel needs to be examined within Islam itself,and these &#039;extremists&#039; are those, unlike other Muslims, that are doing something to resolve Islam&#039;s historical conflict. But the motivation and impetus and justification for their actions must ultimately be seen in terms of their core belief and values as found in their scriptures. That is where they find the basis for justification for what they do. As Erdogan,the Turkish PM reputedly said,&#039;There is no extreme or militant Islam, there is only Islam, to call it otherwise is an insult to Islam&#039;. Yet we in the west are afraid to call it Islam,out of fear of offending it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a brilliant analysis that places the conflict in a historical, civilizational context, and within Islam itself.<br />
The rage that certain Muslims feel needs to be examined within Islam itself,and these &#8216;extremists&#8217; are those, unlike other Muslims, that are doing something to resolve Islam&#8217;s historical conflict. But the motivation and impetus and justification for their actions must ultimately be seen in terms of their core belief and values as found in their scriptures. That is where they find the basis for justification for what they do. As Erdogan,the Turkish PM reputedly said,&#8217;There is no extreme or militant Islam, there is only Islam, to call it otherwise is an insult to Islam&#8217;. Yet we in the west are afraid to call it Islam,out of fear of offending it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brian H		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/rage-history-writes-clive-kessler/#comment-127330</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=49046#comment-127330</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[An interesting piece. But what exactly is the issue at the core of Islam and its texts which lends itself to terrorism?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting piece. But what exactly is the issue at the core of Islam and its texts which lends itself to terrorism?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Leon Poddebsky		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/rage-history-writes-clive-kessler/#comment-127300</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leon Poddebsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=49046#comment-127300</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That rage doesn&#039;t &quot;lurk;&quot; It EXPLODES!!!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That rage doesn&#8217;t &#8220;lurk;&#8221; It EXPLODES!!!</p>
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