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	Comments on: Questions for the New Israel Fund	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8617</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2011 11:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8617</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I feel that I arrived at a juncture where there is an obvious need to clarify if, in the general context of the exchages of opinions vehiculated on this site, the rhetorical avocation of &quot;argumentum ad hominem&quot; is always unacceptable or it could be also used as an apodictic reasoning, a legitimate, relevant and, above all, reasonable argumentation.
I shall resume to the known aphorism that &quot;personal attacks&quot; are not unconditional fallacies, considering the strict contextual relevance. Save legal limitations, ripostes of any stylistic manner, not to mention intensity of substance, are not only acceptable as dialectical practice , but organically implicit, dynamically anticipated and logically impossible to expurgate.
This means that anyone supporting views, promoting competing norms, MUST expect conflict. Once the individual is exposed in the conflict forum not just the notions proffered will be attacked, but so will be the very purveyor of them. Accordingly the slightest flaws shall be revealed and necessarily construed in demostrable rational. The very structure of the argumentation must be so water-tight as to exclude, invite damaging criticism. The discerned flaws, however,belong not only to the logical or otherwise &quot;autonomous&quot; construct, but also to the source of the utterings, i.e. the retor. The utterings impinge upon the individual responsible for them. 
Prevalently,the political arena is defined by merciless &quot;revelations&quot; about individuals, personal features, traits etc. readily conjuncted with politica/ideological structures. The highest form of intimate physiognomic, indeed,connexion to idea &quot;details&quot; is the revered art of political cartoons etc.

When one signs a statement with one&#039;s name, one must stand behind what the one says. If one wants  one&#039;s feathers &quot;nylon-permanent&quot;,one must confine oneself to the safety of vacuum tight peace, quiet and almost dead silence. Once one steps out in the open agora of encounters/conflict/ideological propositions/personal pontification/political activism etc.one must expect batallions of Otto Waldmanns sanguinely wanting one&#039;s backside. Otherwise there are much cooler places in the house than the kitchen.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel that I arrived at a juncture where there is an obvious need to clarify if, in the general context of the exchages of opinions vehiculated on this site, the rhetorical avocation of &#8220;argumentum ad hominem&#8221; is always unacceptable or it could be also used as an apodictic reasoning, a legitimate, relevant and, above all, reasonable argumentation.<br />
I shall resume to the known aphorism that &#8220;personal attacks&#8221; are not unconditional fallacies, considering the strict contextual relevance. Save legal limitations, ripostes of any stylistic manner, not to mention intensity of substance, are not only acceptable as dialectical practice , but organically implicit, dynamically anticipated and logically impossible to expurgate.<br />
This means that anyone supporting views, promoting competing norms, MUST expect conflict. Once the individual is exposed in the conflict forum not just the notions proffered will be attacked, but so will be the very purveyor of them. Accordingly the slightest flaws shall be revealed and necessarily construed in demostrable rational. The very structure of the argumentation must be so water-tight as to exclude, invite damaging criticism. The discerned flaws, however,belong not only to the logical or otherwise &#8220;autonomous&#8221; construct, but also to the source of the utterings, i.e. the retor. The utterings impinge upon the individual responsible for them.<br />
Prevalently,the political arena is defined by merciless &#8220;revelations&#8221; about individuals, personal features, traits etc. readily conjuncted with politica/ideological structures. The highest form of intimate physiognomic, indeed,connexion to idea &#8220;details&#8221; is the revered art of political cartoons etc.</p>
<p>When one signs a statement with one&#8217;s name, one must stand behind what the one says. If one wants  one&#8217;s feathers &#8220;nylon-permanent&#8221;,one must confine oneself to the safety of vacuum tight peace, quiet and almost dead silence. Once one steps out in the open agora of encounters/conflict/ideological propositions/personal pontification/political activism etc.one must expect batallions of Otto Waldmanns sanguinely wanting one&#8217;s backside. Otherwise there are much cooler places in the house than the kitchen.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8616</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8616</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Ian and just as dear &quot;admin&quot;, not to mention dear Nathan

For the record the above is not meant to be at all personal, just customary politness as I am trying to make clear and total UNpersonal remarks regarding personal opinions voiced by persons who,through using this communication method , are simply voicing opinions which, let&#039;s presume,do NOT pertain to their PERSONAL thinking and expressing intellectual structure. Accordingly, Ian would express opinions he would purchase off the shelf at Coles or home made by,say,his gorgeous lady and &quot;admin&quot; would buy them wholesale and Nathan granted from the NIF stock and trade. I, on the other side, can only indulge in what my very personal, solitary,resources allow. Florence left me once, some 17 years ago, then we resumed our union, Felix is too busy making inroads at Cambridge, apparently having my brains, which means devested me of any, so what am I to do when it comes to best defending what is one of the most important functions, defending Israel the best I , PERSONALLY can !!!
Accordingly I am kindly asking Ian to provide me with remarks I could,completely NONpersonally express,hoping that &quot;admin&quot; will find them acceptable. Meantime Nathan,NIF and all concerned may atack me personally,as Nathan actually DID and promiss to keep it personal and not tell either Ian, admin,my wife, or anybody else&#039;s. Felix will be spared, as he&#039;s arriving today and this time jetlag will be an excellent reason to fob off my kveching re the cronic persection his father has been the victim of.....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Ian and just as dear &#8220;admin&#8221;, not to mention dear Nathan</p>
<p>For the record the above is not meant to be at all personal, just customary politness as I am trying to make clear and total UNpersonal remarks regarding personal opinions voiced by persons who,through using this communication method , are simply voicing opinions which, let&#8217;s presume,do NOT pertain to their PERSONAL thinking and expressing intellectual structure. Accordingly, Ian would express opinions he would purchase off the shelf at Coles or home made by,say,his gorgeous lady and &#8220;admin&#8221; would buy them wholesale and Nathan granted from the NIF stock and trade. I, on the other side, can only indulge in what my very personal, solitary,resources allow. Florence left me once, some 17 years ago, then we resumed our union, Felix is too busy making inroads at Cambridge, apparently having my brains, which means devested me of any, so what am I to do when it comes to best defending what is one of the most important functions, defending Israel the best I , PERSONALLY can !!!<br />
Accordingly I am kindly asking Ian to provide me with remarks I could,completely NONpersonally express,hoping that &#8220;admin&#8221; will find them acceptable. Meantime Nathan,NIF and all concerned may atack me personally,as Nathan actually DID and promiss to keep it personal and not tell either Ian, admin,my wife, or anybody else&#8217;s. Felix will be spared, as he&#8217;s arriving today and this time jetlag will be an excellent reason to fob off my kveching re the cronic persection his father has been the victim of&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>
		By: admin		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8613</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[admin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 12:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8613</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[too personal, Otto]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>too personal, Otto</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ian Lacey		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8612</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Lacey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 11:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8612</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For the record, I disapprove of  Otto&#039;s personal remarks.

Ian Lacey]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I disapprove of  Otto&#8217;s personal remarks.</p>
<p>Ian Lacey</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nathan Cherny		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8606</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Cherny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 19:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8606</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Otto
despite the stridency of your tone, the misinformation regarding the so called hostile  agenda of the most important civil society organisation in Israel is just so much wind. I and my &quot;political ilk&quot; will not be bullied or intimidated by you.

My Zionism may be different from yours, but it is a one in which I take pride as being part of a great many who are committed to the values of justice and democracy asserted in Israel declaration of Independence.

It may make you, and others uncomfortable, when me &quot;and my ilk&quot; stand up to try to make a difference. It may make you rage with anger that I do stand up for the rights of non-0rthodox Jews, for the rights of  Sephardi Girls to study as equals in Ashkenazi schools, to work for the welfare of Ethiopian immigrants , that we gladly fight for the protection of greens spaces and the implementation of clean water and water laws. Maybe you are uncomfortable with our battle to end violence in soccer stadiums or that we promote Orthodox women fighting for their status or rights of agunot and women who are refused gets.

Yes I, and the chief prosecutor of the Army, are appreciative of the important work of BTselem, in identifying war crimes when they occurred. Or maybe the chief prosecutor of the army deserves the flippant disregard you have for me and any contribution I may have made to Israeli society.

Otto, how can you not be proud of the incredible work Naomi Chazan, the former deputy speaker of the Knesset did in defending Israel in front of an incredibly hostile forum at the Sydney Opera House? 

You are entitled to your concerns, valid or not, but your total inability to acknowledge the incredible merit and contribution that has been acknowledged even by the most vocal opponents of NIF belittles you.

Yours is not the only vision of Zionism.. but it sure seems to be a very narrow, hostile and unpleasant one.

I do not think that you did &quot;your friend&quot; Ian Lacey proud.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Otto<br />
despite the stridency of your tone, the misinformation regarding the so called hostile  agenda of the most important civil society organisation in Israel is just so much wind. I and my &#8220;political ilk&#8221; will not be bullied or intimidated by you.</p>
<p>My Zionism may be different from yours, but it is a one in which I take pride as being part of a great many who are committed to the values of justice and democracy asserted in Israel declaration of Independence.</p>
<p>It may make you, and others uncomfortable, when me &#8220;and my ilk&#8221; stand up to try to make a difference. It may make you rage with anger that I do stand up for the rights of non-0rthodox Jews, for the rights of  Sephardi Girls to study as equals in Ashkenazi schools, to work for the welfare of Ethiopian immigrants , that we gladly fight for the protection of greens spaces and the implementation of clean water and water laws. Maybe you are uncomfortable with our battle to end violence in soccer stadiums or that we promote Orthodox women fighting for their status or rights of agunot and women who are refused gets.</p>
<p>Yes I, and the chief prosecutor of the Army, are appreciative of the important work of BTselem, in identifying war crimes when they occurred. Or maybe the chief prosecutor of the army deserves the flippant disregard you have for me and any contribution I may have made to Israeli society.</p>
<p>Otto, how can you not be proud of the incredible work Naomi Chazan, the former deputy speaker of the Knesset did in defending Israel in front of an incredibly hostile forum at the Sydney Opera House? </p>
<p>You are entitled to your concerns, valid or not, but your total inability to acknowledge the incredible merit and contribution that has been acknowledged even by the most vocal opponents of NIF belittles you.</p>
<p>Yours is not the only vision of Zionism.. but it sure seems to be a very narrow, hostile and unpleasant one.</p>
<p>I do not think that you did &#8220;your friend&#8221; Ian Lacey proud.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8590</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jul 2011 23:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8590</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Offended Nathan and his wife ( reminding me of the &quot; I am Brian and so is my wife !&quot; ) dispenses advice, moral rectitude, personal injury cum modest comparative superiority re his place of abode, all in the name of absconding indifensible  affront to what we call, quite ethically, rational consideration of prevailing circumstances burdening Israel and general Yidishkeit. One may live and work in his chosen field in Israel, even serve in the IDF, pay taxes and other dues, cross the street only on the green light and even keep a kosher home and, yet, proffer vicious, damaging, incongruous notions AGAINST the very state and people he delusionally reckons he is .... protecting. A minute legal encounter, insignificant to the vital issues confronting Israel is not going to render NIF and Dr. Nathan Cherny, a specialist in oncology, granted, the right to peddle clear obnoxious policies, as we all DO KNOW NIF has been responsible for. It is, indeed, the moral obligation of oncologist Cherny to appologise to all and sundry for the indisputable anti Israel activities and utterings of NIF and its president, Naomi Chazan as far too obviously evinced by the massive support given to the BDS and the Goldstone report by the large number of NGOs financially supported by NIF. Being a valuable oncologist does not absolve or, indeed afford licence to one to claim authority over issues that do have something to do with clinically affected behaviour of the non-oncological type. Yes, one can live and work in Israel and yet manifestly act AGAINST the best interests of his own country and that IS indubitably a non oncological complaint which Dr. Cherny and his political ilk must address as a matter of urgency before they demand respect. Meanwhile, Aitan Cohen speakes the emet, not to mention my good friend Ian !]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Offended Nathan and his wife ( reminding me of the &#8221; I am Brian and so is my wife !&#8221; ) dispenses advice, moral rectitude, personal injury cum modest comparative superiority re his place of abode, all in the name of absconding indifensible  affront to what we call, quite ethically, rational consideration of prevailing circumstances burdening Israel and general Yidishkeit. One may live and work in his chosen field in Israel, even serve in the IDF, pay taxes and other dues, cross the street only on the green light and even keep a kosher home and, yet, proffer vicious, damaging, incongruous notions AGAINST the very state and people he delusionally reckons he is &#8230;. protecting. A minute legal encounter, insignificant to the vital issues confronting Israel is not going to render NIF and Dr. Nathan Cherny, a specialist in oncology, granted, the right to peddle clear obnoxious policies, as we all DO KNOW NIF has been responsible for. It is, indeed, the moral obligation of oncologist Cherny to appologise to all and sundry for the indisputable anti Israel activities and utterings of NIF and its president, Naomi Chazan as far too obviously evinced by the massive support given to the BDS and the Goldstone report by the large number of NGOs financially supported by NIF. Being a valuable oncologist does not absolve or, indeed afford licence to one to claim authority over issues that do have something to do with clinically affected behaviour of the non-oncological type. Yes, one can live and work in Israel and yet manifestly act AGAINST the best interests of his own country and that IS indubitably a non oncological complaint which Dr. Cherny and his political ilk must address as a matter of urgency before they demand respect. Meanwhile, Aitan Cohen speakes the emet, not to mention my good friend Ian !</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ian Lacey		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8566</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Lacey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8566</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree with Nathan on the need for civility in our discussions, and I also have a great deal of respect for his work. The title of the the article was &quot;Questions for the NIF&quot;, and Nathan answered one of those questions.

 To my mind, his response illustrated the difficulties the NIF faces. The Fund quite properly financed the provision of legal aid for people with a genuine grievance. The problem in this case was that the advocacy group funded by the NIF turned an ordinary tenancy dispute into an international cause. 

Unfortunately there are a number of advocacy groups financed by the NIF which similarly, and sometimes intentionally, convert Israeli social issues into anti-Israel agitation. It is a problem which the NIF will need to overcome before it seeks contributions from the Jewish community in Australia.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Nathan on the need for civility in our discussions, and I also have a great deal of respect for his work. The title of the the article was &#8220;Questions for the NIF&#8221;, and Nathan answered one of those questions.</p>
<p> To my mind, his response illustrated the difficulties the NIF faces. The Fund quite properly financed the provision of legal aid for people with a genuine grievance. The problem in this case was that the advocacy group funded by the NIF turned an ordinary tenancy dispute into an international cause. </p>
<p>Unfortunately there are a number of advocacy groups financed by the NIF which similarly, and sometimes intentionally, convert Israeli social issues into anti-Israel agitation. It is a problem which the NIF will need to overcome before it seeks contributions from the Jewish community in Australia.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nathan Cherny		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8554</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Cherny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8554</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Aitan, I think that even Ian Lacy (and possibly Mr Singer and Mr Winter) will agree that your comments are totally out of line and grossly offensive. 

You don&#039;t need to agree with people whose opinion is different from your own and you don&#039;t need to support the work of the New Israel Fund, but you cannot call us antisemites or enemies of the state. There you have crossed the line.

You do , however, need to give people like myself who have made Israel our homes (having chosen to leave the comfort of Australia) out of a commitment to making a contribution to be a part of building a just and democratic Jewish State, our due credit.

In calling me and my wife antisemites or self hating Jews, you only undermine your own credibility and cause deep offense..which is taken personally

I look forward to your apology.

Nathan Cherny,
Dept of Oncology and Palliative Care, 
Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, Israel]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aitan, I think that even Ian Lacy (and possibly Mr Singer and Mr Winter) will agree that your comments are totally out of line and grossly offensive. </p>
<p>You don&#8217;t need to agree with people whose opinion is different from your own and you don&#8217;t need to support the work of the New Israel Fund, but you cannot call us antisemites or enemies of the state. There you have crossed the line.</p>
<p>You do , however, need to give people like myself who have made Israel our homes (having chosen to leave the comfort of Australia) out of a commitment to making a contribution to be a part of building a just and democratic Jewish State, our due credit.</p>
<p>In calling me and my wife antisemites or self hating Jews, you only undermine your own credibility and cause deep offense..which is taken personally</p>
<p>I look forward to your apology.</p>
<p>Nathan Cherny,<br />
Dept of Oncology and Palliative Care,<br />
Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, Israel</p>
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		<title>
		By: Aitan Cohen		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8517</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aitan Cohen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8517</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[NIF is an enemy of the Jeweish people and the state of Israel. It&#039;s Jewish-membership-dominated existance is a phnomenon yet to be studied by phycologists. Until this amzing self antisemitism is academically understood, we should treat them as enemies with all implications involved.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NIF is an enemy of the Jeweish people and the state of Israel. It&#8217;s Jewish-membership-dominated existance is a phnomenon yet to be studied by phycologists. Until this amzing self antisemitism is academically understood, we should treat them as enemies with all implications involved.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ian Lacey		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/questions-for-the-new-israel-fund/#comment-8491</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Lacey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=16769#comment-8491</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That is good news. It demonstrates how the issue was being dealt with by the Israeli courts on the merits of the case. It also shows how inappropriate it was for the NIF to finance public demonstrations featuring the likes of Mary Robinson and Jimmy Carter, while the matter was being litigated, and defaming Israel internationally.

Another news item, not seen by me before the article was written:
New Israel Fund Cut Off From Ford Foundation
Daily Forward April 7, 2011 By Aaron Katsman 
While not outwardly admitting it, the Ford Foundation has been swayed by right of center groups in Israel to cut off funding of the New Israel Fund. The controversial New Israel Fund has come under immense pressure for funding extreme left wing political groups in Israel.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is good news. It demonstrates how the issue was being dealt with by the Israeli courts on the merits of the case. It also shows how inappropriate it was for the NIF to finance public demonstrations featuring the likes of Mary Robinson and Jimmy Carter, while the matter was being litigated, and defaming Israel internationally.</p>
<p>Another news item, not seen by me before the article was written:<br />
New Israel Fund Cut Off From Ford Foundation<br />
Daily Forward April 7, 2011 By Aaron Katsman<br />
While not outwardly admitting it, the Ford Foundation has been swayed by right of center groups in Israel to cut off funding of the New Israel Fund. The controversial New Israel Fund has come under immense pressure for funding extreme left wing political groups in Israel.</p>
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