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	Comments on: Bob Carr: Danby has his say	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Liat Nagar		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-125331</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liat Nagar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2014 04:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Now I am beginning to understand the way your mind works, Otto.  Thanks for the discussion.  Happy Chanukah to you and yours, too.
Oh, I would so love to be in Barcelona!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I am beginning to understand the way your mind works, Otto.  Thanks for the discussion.  Happy Chanukah to you and yours, too.<br />
Oh, I would so love to be in Barcelona!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-125246</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-125246</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-125031&quot;&gt;Liat Nagar&lt;/a&gt;.

Dear Liat

Impetuous personalities are perfectly suited for all kinda comments, aestetic in particular and , when it comes to fine art, drugs are mixed with their paint and, in some cases, particularly abstract, with their &quot;subject&quot;. Otherwise other inducements found in vino veritas. Nothing to be ashamed of, a rite of passage.
In the political &quot;genre&quot; one is supposed to be sober and well balanced, but when we sense silly forays, a certain rush of blood, mixed with ideological preconditions, cannot be avoided. Much better noticed if political opinion condimented with slightly coleric tones, they notice and compelled to reply. One can always rely on a solid dose of vanity cum insecurity at the &quot;elite&quot;. In the more arrogant cases , the quantum of aggressiveness/chromatic address by the commenter must be adjusted accordingly. Flexibility of style is a must.

Liceu is one of the most exclusive, elegant stages in the world, same as Barcelona itself.

Happy Chanukah 
otto]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-125031">Liat Nagar</a>.</p>
<p>Dear Liat</p>
<p>Impetuous personalities are perfectly suited for all kinda comments, aestetic in particular and , when it comes to fine art, drugs are mixed with their paint and, in some cases, particularly abstract, with their &#8220;subject&#8221;. Otherwise other inducements found in vino veritas. Nothing to be ashamed of, a rite of passage.<br />
In the political &#8220;genre&#8221; one is supposed to be sober and well balanced, but when we sense silly forays, a certain rush of blood, mixed with ideological preconditions, cannot be avoided. Much better noticed if political opinion condimented with slightly coleric tones, they notice and compelled to reply. One can always rely on a solid dose of vanity cum insecurity at the &#8220;elite&#8221;. In the more arrogant cases , the quantum of aggressiveness/chromatic address by the commenter must be adjusted accordingly. Flexibility of style is a must.</p>
<p>Liceu is one of the most exclusive, elegant stages in the world, same as Barcelona itself.</p>
<p>Happy Chanukah<br />
otto</p>
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		<title>
		By: Liat Nagar		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-125031</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liat Nagar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2014 01:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-125031</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Otto,
Your generalities are breathtaking, and you must surely recognise that? Within them there are so many exceptions to be considered that it renders them useless in meaning. This, coming from a man of your intelligence, can only be put down to (a) an impetuous element of your personality or (b) a means by which to provoke and thereby incite lengthy discussion until such time as those engaged in the discussion come to a satisfactory, or otherwise, conclusion.
 
As I am sure you must recognise, not all creative artists use drugs, and if those who do are creating while not using, then the creation and the drugs are not inseparable.

What a sublime experience you will have on January 9, listening to Joyce Didonato in Barcelona, and my imagination embraces what I think will be a wonderful setting.
I am glad for you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Otto,<br />
Your generalities are breathtaking, and you must surely recognise that? Within them there are so many exceptions to be considered that it renders them useless in meaning. This, coming from a man of your intelligence, can only be put down to (a) an impetuous element of your personality or (b) a means by which to provoke and thereby incite lengthy discussion until such time as those engaged in the discussion come to a satisfactory, or otherwise, conclusion.</p>
<p>As I am sure you must recognise, not all creative artists use drugs, and if those who do are creating while not using, then the creation and the drugs are not inseparable.</p>
<p>What a sublime experience you will have on January 9, listening to Joyce Didonato in Barcelona, and my imagination embraces what I think will be a wonderful setting.<br />
I am glad for you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124849</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124849</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124830&quot;&gt;Liat Nagar&lt;/a&gt;.

Dear Liat
my musical &quot;tour&quot; ain&#039;t finishing at all, as a matter of fact, on Jan. 9, &#039;15 you&#039;ll find me at the Barcelona Lyceu Opera House sitting pretty ( and excited) and listening to Joyce Didonato in that looooong and fantastic &quot;Maria Stuarda&quot;. I&#039;ve seen her (Didonato) before and I reckon she is perhaps the best mezzo  gracing the stage these days.
As about creative artists and drugs, I&#039;d venture that it&#039;s hard to tell what comes first - or &quot;who&#039;s on foyst&quot; -, but they are inseparable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124830">Liat Nagar</a>.</p>
<p>Dear Liat<br />
my musical &#8220;tour&#8221; ain&#8217;t finishing at all, as a matter of fact, on Jan. 9, &#8217;15 you&#8217;ll find me at the Barcelona Lyceu Opera House sitting pretty ( and excited) and listening to Joyce Didonato in that looooong and fantastic &#8220;Maria Stuarda&#8221;. I&#8217;ve seen her (Didonato) before and I reckon she is perhaps the best mezzo  gracing the stage these days.<br />
As about creative artists and drugs, I&#8217;d venture that it&#8217;s hard to tell what comes first &#8211; or &#8220;who&#8217;s on foyst&#8221; -, but they are inseparable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Liat Nagar		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124830</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liat Nagar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124830</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Otto,
After all that, it seems we actually agree.  That&#039;s fine, it&#039;s often the discussion itself that proves the most worthwhile, both with what it unearths and how it&#039;s expressed, rather than agreement itself.

Your reference to &#039;indispensable substance trading&#039;, and artistic creation by way of its artificially/chemically induced influence these days, needs comment though.  Substance abuse and addiction is across the whole strata of society, not just partaken of by &#039;Bohemian&#039; types.  It&#039;s the scourge of our time and a depressing, even despairing situation, due to the inadequate response to it by government, law-makers and the health industry.  If we have eastetic (sic) - ecstatic ?? - genuises creating while under the influence, rest assured they will not be creating at their best, indeed if they continue along this course, ultimately their work will diminish dreadfully.  It&#039;s a misnomer, and completely incorrect, that drugs of any kind enhance creative output. It&#039;s a popular misconception.  Not only do drugs impair physical co-ordination and mental acuity, they also prevent entrance to the soul.  How then can good or exceptional art emerge?  Answer, it can&#039;t.  Never mind all the tales of phantasmagoria, fantastic trips and the like ... nothing to do with art.  Of course, Coleridge&#039;s &#039;Kubla Khan&#039; was supposed to have been written during his addiction to opium, and closer to home and our lifetime Brett Whiteley painted and was a heroin addict (although I&#039;m not sure if the paintings were produced either side of using heroin or during), and we have numerous accounts of alcohol riddled artists and writers, but truth is the evil that it is gets them in the end and they and their works are the worse for it.

When will your musical tour be finishing?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Otto,<br />
After all that, it seems we actually agree.  That&#8217;s fine, it&#8217;s often the discussion itself that proves the most worthwhile, both with what it unearths and how it&#8217;s expressed, rather than agreement itself.</p>
<p>Your reference to &#8216;indispensable substance trading&#8217;, and artistic creation by way of its artificially/chemically induced influence these days, needs comment though.  Substance abuse and addiction is across the whole strata of society, not just partaken of by &#8216;Bohemian&#8217; types.  It&#8217;s the scourge of our time and a depressing, even despairing situation, due to the inadequate response to it by government, law-makers and the health industry.  If we have eastetic (sic) &#8211; ecstatic ?? &#8211; genuises creating while under the influence, rest assured they will not be creating at their best, indeed if they continue along this course, ultimately their work will diminish dreadfully.  It&#8217;s a misnomer, and completely incorrect, that drugs of any kind enhance creative output. It&#8217;s a popular misconception.  Not only do drugs impair physical co-ordination and mental acuity, they also prevent entrance to the soul.  How then can good or exceptional art emerge?  Answer, it can&#8217;t.  Never mind all the tales of phantasmagoria, fantastic trips and the like &#8230; nothing to do with art.  Of course, Coleridge&#8217;s &#8216;Kubla Khan&#8217; was supposed to have been written during his addiction to opium, and closer to home and our lifetime Brett Whiteley painted and was a heroin addict (although I&#8217;m not sure if the paintings were produced either side of using heroin or during), and we have numerous accounts of alcohol riddled artists and writers, but truth is the evil that it is gets them in the end and they and their works are the worse for it.</p>
<p>When will your musical tour be finishing?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124699</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124699</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124673&quot;&gt;Liat Nagar&lt;/a&gt;.

Dear Liat

Samizdat and anti establishment authors in totalitarian regimes are a completely different story (hic) to what I was alluding to when referring to the culturally oppressive climate. I spent my first 23  years in precisely such a country, including school, university, working as a journalist.

Hubs of varied   educational standards, both residents and schools as such, are well documented and, generally quite immediately known/sensed. Exceptions will be found everywhere, but culture and demographics is a very well proven tandem.   
&quot;Bohemian&quot; quarters will have a contradictory mix of types and, these days, anyway, the confluence is mostly found at the &quot;exchange&quot; level of ( seemingly) indispensable  substance trading, that&#039;s when our eastetic geniuses appear to be able to create ONLY if artificially/chemically induced...
Otherwise, I am all too aware that the social origins of a multitude of artists were at the lowest stratum. I the case of fine art , it stands to reason that only a highly gifted individual could paint, carve marble etc. and those virtues were NOT class related, but naturally endowed qualities. Same with music. Literature is, predominantly, distinct.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124673">Liat Nagar</a>.</p>
<p>Dear Liat</p>
<p>Samizdat and anti establishment authors in totalitarian regimes are a completely different story (hic) to what I was alluding to when referring to the culturally oppressive climate. I spent my first 23  years in precisely such a country, including school, university, working as a journalist.</p>
<p>Hubs of varied   educational standards, both residents and schools as such, are well documented and, generally quite immediately known/sensed. Exceptions will be found everywhere, but culture and demographics is a very well proven tandem.<br />
&#8220;Bohemian&#8221; quarters will have a contradictory mix of types and, these days, anyway, the confluence is mostly found at the &#8220;exchange&#8221; level of ( seemingly) indispensable  substance trading, that&#8217;s when our eastetic geniuses appear to be able to create ONLY if artificially/chemically induced&#8230;<br />
Otherwise, I am all too aware that the social origins of a multitude of artists were at the lowest stratum. I the case of fine art , it stands to reason that only a highly gifted individual could paint, carve marble etc. and those virtues were NOT class related, but naturally endowed qualities. Same with music. Literature is, predominantly, distinct.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Liat Nagar		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124673</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liat Nagar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2014 03:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124673</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh, Otto, you are now steering in a new direction, vis a vis, undue focus on the Communist Party.  Some of the best works of art, particularly in literature, have come out of oppressive, authoritarian situations where official censorship was the name of the day - see Osip Mandelshtam, Pasternak, Akhmatova, Solzenhitsyn, et al, and many other writers who are not Russian.  And in earlier times, playwrights used their superior skills to get away with murder by metaphorical allusion, thereby foregoing a rap on the knuckles or worse from presiding governments who didn&#039;t get it, going right back to Aeschylus and Sophocles.

Culture is not available to everyone, not in a realistic sense.  And not all depends on the home front, even though that can play a significant role.  Talent and genius in art forms have sprung from the most unlikely home environments, and it does my heart good to know that not everything by any means is dependent on the handing down from generation to generation some sort of &#039;appreciation of the fine arts&#039; inheritance while wallowing in the comfort that money and contacts bring.  I am not at all interested in categorising artists, or anybody else for that matter, by way of class or anything else for that matter.  Some people have special gifts, and a particular sensibility, that defies their very surroundings.  And it&#039;s a wondrous thing indeed to see that prevail.  

It is a highly dangerous assumption to make that every person who lives in &#039;Australian specific suburbs&#039; is vulgar and ignorant. The danger lies in its likely inaccuracy and its nasty stereotyping.  I lived in an outer Melbourne suburb once long ago where the butcher had paintings (not prints) on the walls of his shop and played classical music as he worked.  One of the furniture removal men packing up my house for me in inner Melbourne a few years ago quoted poetry as he worked. These are just two lovely examples of the universality of art. There will always be those, in Europe too, not just Australia, who rhyme art with fart, and that&#039;s a fact. However, never ever think for a moment, Otto, that you can wrap up suburbs and construction workers in a neat little bundle and assume their knowledge or predilections.

We started out talking about artists (or more specifically) composers creating to a proscribed agenda, as it were.  And it&#039;s this that in the main I refute; it&#039;s this I&#039;ve provided enough examples for to lean in the other direction.  I defend for them their own voice, created within the spirit of their art.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, Otto, you are now steering in a new direction, vis a vis, undue focus on the Communist Party.  Some of the best works of art, particularly in literature, have come out of oppressive, authoritarian situations where official censorship was the name of the day &#8211; see Osip Mandelshtam, Pasternak, Akhmatova, Solzenhitsyn, et al, and many other writers who are not Russian.  And in earlier times, playwrights used their superior skills to get away with murder by metaphorical allusion, thereby foregoing a rap on the knuckles or worse from presiding governments who didn&#8217;t get it, going right back to Aeschylus and Sophocles.</p>
<p>Culture is not available to everyone, not in a realistic sense.  And not all depends on the home front, even though that can play a significant role.  Talent and genius in art forms have sprung from the most unlikely home environments, and it does my heart good to know that not everything by any means is dependent on the handing down from generation to generation some sort of &#8216;appreciation of the fine arts&#8217; inheritance while wallowing in the comfort that money and contacts bring.  I am not at all interested in categorising artists, or anybody else for that matter, by way of class or anything else for that matter.  Some people have special gifts, and a particular sensibility, that defies their very surroundings.  And it&#8217;s a wondrous thing indeed to see that prevail.  </p>
<p>It is a highly dangerous assumption to make that every person who lives in &#8216;Australian specific suburbs&#8217; is vulgar and ignorant. The danger lies in its likely inaccuracy and its nasty stereotyping.  I lived in an outer Melbourne suburb once long ago where the butcher had paintings (not prints) on the walls of his shop and played classical music as he worked.  One of the furniture removal men packing up my house for me in inner Melbourne a few years ago quoted poetry as he worked. These are just two lovely examples of the universality of art. There will always be those, in Europe too, not just Australia, who rhyme art with fart, and that&#8217;s a fact. However, never ever think for a moment, Otto, that you can wrap up suburbs and construction workers in a neat little bundle and assume their knowledge or predilections.</p>
<p>We started out talking about artists (or more specifically) composers creating to a proscribed agenda, as it were.  And it&#8217;s this that in the main I refute; it&#8217;s this I&#8217;ve provided enough examples for to lean in the other direction.  I defend for them their own voice, created within the spirit of their art.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124504</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2014 07:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124504</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124469&quot;&gt;Otto Waldmann&lt;/a&gt;.

Before I forget, romanticism was precisely bougeoisie liberalism against the old aristocratic order, as Marx said, romantics complained about the old world, but did nothing to change it...He  was wrong, of course in as far as the &quot;doing nothing&quot; part when he contradicted himself by stating the his beloved working class can only be lead by the....bourgeoisie.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124469">Otto Waldmann</a>.</p>
<p>Before I forget, romanticism was precisely bougeoisie liberalism against the old aristocratic order, as Marx said, romantics complained about the old world, but did nothing to change it&#8230;He  was wrong, of course in as far as the &#8220;doing nothing&#8221; part when he contradicted himself by stating the his beloved working class can only be lead by the&#8230;.bourgeoisie.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Otto Waldmann		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124469</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Otto Waldmann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2014 22:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124469</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124404&quot;&gt;Liat Nagar&lt;/a&gt;.

Dear Liat

There must be a misprint in your last reply where you say that &quot; after the communist regime in Russia &quot; ( which is NOW ) people could afford and did go to the Bolshoi etc. Well, I was in Moscow in April 1984 and went to Bolshoi -  saw &quot;Cosi&quot; - and paid some FOUR DOLLARS - in rubles - per ticket, box seat . Today at the same Bolshoi one ticket for Rigoletto starts at US$152.00 and on the evening of Dec.24.2014 YOU can see the Nutcracker ballet for........wait............US$897.00  a ticket !!!(eight hundred ninetyseven ). If you meant &quot;after the communist regime  was installed&quot; then the four bucks a ticket applied.Careful, though, during the communist regime, while tickets were on a poultry basis, the cultural Party-led  control,  repertoire and , sometimes, modifications to libretti were at the discretion of a kind of terror/censorship which is a bit difficult to get excited about.

Culture is available to everyone. Any literate person  can read books, yet the practice as such depends on the &quot;atmosphere&quot; on the home front. Same with appreciating classical music, fine art etc.
Once again, the known tribulations of numerous artists, painters and more so poets/writers, was not due to their working class standing, but either to their defiance of the high society aesthetic/thematic  impositions and in some cases even political &quot;fronde&quot; or, in some other, at the opposite end, to the platitude conventional, fashion compliance. Yet, I insist, in all cases you listed, the clientele of all started well above the working class. Van Gough is a special case and same for OUR own Modigliani.
Look at Chopin, he did not own even a one  bedroom flat in a mansarde, yet he was hosted and performed only from Barons upwards to the highest aristocracy. Rembrandt ended up broke, but only the richest merchants would place orders etc. Mozart.......and Beethoven only rented a flat on the 2nd floor of a modest house in Vienna while Counts were queuing at his door for quartets and partitures were sold/played only in salons where fortepianos were in place - the price of one being roughly the income for five years of a carpenter.

I suggest next time you go past a construction site ask one of the blokes if they know whereabouts is in the neighbourhood a certain sushi restaurant called Gustav Mahler; I do it all the time, including Rafaelle da Urbino dry cleaners. In Australian specific  suburbs art is only meant to rhyme with fart. 

In any case, the cost of attending high culture in Australia is ridiculously higher than other civilised centres which host regularly much bigger names. Moscow is an exception, same St. Petersbourg.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124404">Liat Nagar</a>.</p>
<p>Dear Liat</p>
<p>There must be a misprint in your last reply where you say that &#8221; after the communist regime in Russia &#8221; ( which is NOW ) people could afford and did go to the Bolshoi etc. Well, I was in Moscow in April 1984 and went to Bolshoi &#8211;  saw &#8220;Cosi&#8221; &#8211; and paid some FOUR DOLLARS &#8211; in rubles &#8211; per ticket, box seat . Today at the same Bolshoi one ticket for Rigoletto starts at US$152.00 and on the evening of Dec.24.2014 YOU can see the Nutcracker ballet for&#8230;&#8230;..wait&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;US$897.00  a ticket !!!(eight hundred ninetyseven ). If you meant &#8220;after the communist regime  was installed&#8221; then the four bucks a ticket applied.Careful, though, during the communist regime, while tickets were on a poultry basis, the cultural Party-led  control,  repertoire and , sometimes, modifications to libretti were at the discretion of a kind of terror/censorship which is a bit difficult to get excited about.</p>
<p>Culture is available to everyone. Any literate person  can read books, yet the practice as such depends on the &#8220;atmosphere&#8221; on the home front. Same with appreciating classical music, fine art etc.<br />
Once again, the known tribulations of numerous artists, painters and more so poets/writers, was not due to their working class standing, but either to their defiance of the high society aesthetic/thematic  impositions and in some cases even political &#8220;fronde&#8221; or, in some other, at the opposite end, to the platitude conventional, fashion compliance. Yet, I insist, in all cases you listed, the clientele of all started well above the working class. Van Gough is a special case and same for OUR own Modigliani.<br />
Look at Chopin, he did not own even a one  bedroom flat in a mansarde, yet he was hosted and performed only from Barons upwards to the highest aristocracy. Rembrandt ended up broke, but only the richest merchants would place orders etc. Mozart&#8230;&#8230;.and Beethoven only rented a flat on the 2nd floor of a modest house in Vienna while Counts were queuing at his door for quartets and partitures were sold/played only in salons where fortepianos were in place &#8211; the price of one being roughly the income for five years of a carpenter.</p>
<p>I suggest next time you go past a construction site ask one of the blokes if they know whereabouts is in the neighbourhood a certain sushi restaurant called Gustav Mahler; I do it all the time, including Rafaelle da Urbino dry cleaners. In Australian specific  suburbs art is only meant to rhyme with fart. </p>
<p>In any case, the cost of attending high culture in Australia is ridiculously higher than other civilised centres which host regularly much bigger names. Moscow is an exception, same St. Petersbourg.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Liat Nagar		</title>
		<link>https://www.jwire.com.au/bob-carr-danby-say/#comment-124404</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liat Nagar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jwire.com.au/?p=47345#comment-124404</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Otto,
I didn&#039;t mean to imply that all classes of society attended opera and concerts under discussion.  Of course, they did not.  This due to lack of money/education and people assuming their own lower or poorer status due to the governing mores of their time.  It might be said here, that the cost of attending such in Australia now will be sealing the fate of those bound to be left out through no affordable options, too. Money should not define the arts, nor snobbery. Look at Russian society, where after communist reign the masses could, and did, attend Bolshoi Ballet,with verve, etc.  Also, in Spain and Italy people across the board have been more than in touch with their poets and their music. Painting and sculpture have always been revolutionary in the making, when one thinks of the Impressionists, after rejection from the French Academy which therefore denied exhibition of their works, who organised their own independently. Also, the marvellous Rodin, many of whose works were considered ugly for their realism and entirely inappropriate. Manet was found incomprehensible with his more &#039;flatly&#039; projected nudes who spoke differently to the viewer and his work &#039;The Picnic&#039; evoking a provoked displeasure. Van Gogh sold only two paintings while alive, despite his brother&#039;s efforts as art dealer on his behalf.  Poor old Cezanne was greeted with incomprehension and derision, and battled on despite it. Modigliani bartered his works for food and coffee at a much frequented local cafe due to poverty and some works commissioned were found to be repugnant due to his unconventional &#039;style&#039;.  Many, many artists who now sell for astronomical amounts of money were not recognised in their time and created their particular art despite their time. El Greco was completely out of favour with the Royals and art critics of his time, and Goya, although commissioned by the Spanish Royal Court for many family paintings, managed to create what&#039;s recognised to be a caricature of King Charles IV and his family, and created works that criticised social and political problems - see his &#039;Los Capriches&#039;, 1799, never forgetting &#039;ordinary&#039; people. For a long time the English Turner was spurned for his fudging of definitive lines and use of colour mood. Getting away from the fine arts, Bach&#039;s compositions were largely unrecognised during his time, and don&#039;t even get me started on writers!  Artists of all kinds create THEIR OWN creations, with their OWN VOICE, despite the banality and restrictions of class and politics around them, and it has been forever thus.  The whole of the Romantic tradition was against the egoism in bourgeois liberalism and, of course, against the booming industrial age. 

It is the moneyed and snobs of societies, with illusions of their own superiority and entitlement, that continually attempt to keep the &#039;working class&#039; in their place.  The artists would have it other. Art &#039;sophistication&#039; may very well have a starting point (and that starting point is how to learn anew), however, any person with the sensibility for receptivity can be moved by fine music, words and painting/sculpture, even if they can&#039;t, at first experience, understand intellectually what it&#039;s about.

I&#039;m disappointed to hear that the Romans are forever clearing their throats during a performance - that&#039;s a shocker!  When I was in Verona in 2006 I saw their calendar of concerts mapped out for the year - many, many - all to be held in the uncovered venue of an ancient building remindful of the Colosseum in architecture, which lit up at night, as indeed did much of the city. The timing was out for me then.  Have you attended anything like that?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Otto,<br />
I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that all classes of society attended opera and concerts under discussion.  Of course, they did not.  This due to lack of money/education and people assuming their own lower or poorer status due to the governing mores of their time.  It might be said here, that the cost of attending such in Australia now will be sealing the fate of those bound to be left out through no affordable options, too. Money should not define the arts, nor snobbery. Look at Russian society, where after communist reign the masses could, and did, attend Bolshoi Ballet,with verve, etc.  Also, in Spain and Italy people across the board have been more than in touch with their poets and their music. Painting and sculpture have always been revolutionary in the making, when one thinks of the Impressionists, after rejection from the French Academy which therefore denied exhibition of their works, who organised their own independently. Also, the marvellous Rodin, many of whose works were considered ugly for their realism and entirely inappropriate. Manet was found incomprehensible with his more &#8216;flatly&#8217; projected nudes who spoke differently to the viewer and his work &#8216;The Picnic&#8217; evoking a provoked displeasure. Van Gogh sold only two paintings while alive, despite his brother&#8217;s efforts as art dealer on his behalf.  Poor old Cezanne was greeted with incomprehension and derision, and battled on despite it. Modigliani bartered his works for food and coffee at a much frequented local cafe due to poverty and some works commissioned were found to be repugnant due to his unconventional &#8216;style&#8217;.  Many, many artists who now sell for astronomical amounts of money were not recognised in their time and created their particular art despite their time. El Greco was completely out of favour with the Royals and art critics of his time, and Goya, although commissioned by the Spanish Royal Court for many family paintings, managed to create what&#8217;s recognised to be a caricature of King Charles IV and his family, and created works that criticised social and political problems &#8211; see his &#8216;Los Capriches&#8217;, 1799, never forgetting &#8216;ordinary&#8217; people. For a long time the English Turner was spurned for his fudging of definitive lines and use of colour mood. Getting away from the fine arts, Bach&#8217;s compositions were largely unrecognised during his time, and don&#8217;t even get me started on writers!  Artists of all kinds create THEIR OWN creations, with their OWN VOICE, despite the banality and restrictions of class and politics around them, and it has been forever thus.  The whole of the Romantic tradition was against the egoism in bourgeois liberalism and, of course, against the booming industrial age. </p>
<p>It is the moneyed and snobs of societies, with illusions of their own superiority and entitlement, that continually attempt to keep the &#8216;working class&#8217; in their place.  The artists would have it other. Art &#8216;sophistication&#8217; may very well have a starting point (and that starting point is how to learn anew), however, any person with the sensibility for receptivity can be moved by fine music, words and painting/sculpture, even if they can&#8217;t, at first experience, understand intellectually what it&#8217;s about.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m disappointed to hear that the Romans are forever clearing their throats during a performance &#8211; that&#8217;s a shocker!  When I was in Verona in 2006 I saw their calendar of concerts mapped out for the year &#8211; many, many &#8211; all to be held in the uncovered venue of an ancient building remindful of the Colosseum in architecture, which lit up at night, as indeed did much of the city. The timing was out for me then.  Have you attended anything like that?</p>
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